36

In my last question, I asked what you thought the public really needed from us, with the goal of seeding discussion around our common identity as the people who co-create this network and maintain it as a knowledge resource. Since I asked that question, I’ve been mulling over where we go from here. In all honesty, there are many good directions to take this series of discussions, but it took a while for the right one to call to me.

Let’s talk about the hatchet.

What part of the network’s operation can be cut away without serious consequences? Importantly: why? What are the reasons it can be safely removed?

I’d encourage you to describe any additional changes that would be needed to accommodate the removal, if you think it necessary.

I want to say that the word “part” can be interpreted as loosely as possible.

  • It could, of course, be a component on the site: some literal component, such as the upvote or edit buttons. But it could also be…
  • A process: a social agreement to handle certain needs, e.g., how we handle tag removals or something related to custom close reasons.
  • A way of thinking: a means by which people come to familiar conclusions, e.g. how we decide when a suggested edit is good, or the degree to which edits should preserve the author’s intent.
  • Something else. Something we do or have that, in your opinion, can or should be removed.

I want to emphasize that removing any component of the network would likely have some consequences. That’s certainly not true of everything (we definitely have a little dead weight), but most things were put there for a reason. They perform some function. Take them out, and there will be effects. But “serious” consequences is the key. I’d encourage you not to ignore the consequences, but instead offer your insights as to what makes it safe and reasonable - or at least safer than people might expect.

(I’m also interested if you’ve got a change that would dramatically reduce the complexity of a part of the network, even if you don’t go for full removal.)

Before you jump to answer, I'd like to share a bit about my goals for this question.

My primary aim is to explore your reasoning, rationales, and collective beliefs about what parts of the platform are truly essential to its operation. It is not and should not be understood as a list of actual feature requests. In particular I’d like to make a request: while you’re certainly welcome to use existing feature requests as inspiration, please don’t simply find one you’re a fan of and post it here.

Along those lines, you should not expect this post to lead to direct action on the specific changes named. For example, if you list “close votes,” don’t be afraid that we’re gonna rip that whole system out tomorrow - and you should also not expect us to pursue one-for-one implementation of things said here. What I’m really after is your core idea, the thing you believe about the platform that makes it so you feel the component you’ve chosen is not necessary and we’d be better off without it.

My secondary aim is to seek unexpected but reasonable answers. For example, question migration could probably be thrown out (my opinion, to be sure), and while some would certainly disagree, I don’t think many people would find it to be an unexpected suggestion. And, of course, the “change of the day” that many people have expressed dislike for (preempting your Answer Assistant response) wouldn’t be that unexpected either.


Unlike previous questions, I think for this one, many people will feel they got the gist and have an easy answer on hand. I’m expecting at least a few people to answer that whatever thing we released yesterday should be cut. But I’ll warn you in advance that I suspect a good answer to this question will be deceptively tricky to think through and write. I’m taking the long view here: my goal is to inspect the foundations of the network and our collective beliefs about it. Take your time - we have plenty. I urge you to think slowly and carefully.

And, as always, join me in Chat if you think the format there will suit your thinking better.

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    Seeking unexpected answers? Let's get rid of questions altogether! Commented Feb 13 at 6:04
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    Provocatively, one could say "Management of the company thinking about the community as part of the product"
    – dan1st
    Commented Feb 13 at 10:55
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    @dan1st if you can elaborate on this, it has value as an answer
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 14:25
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    The entire concept of the network as multiple independent sites should be tossed. The network should be organized around people and communities, not artificially segmented topics. No more association bonus, or arguing about what site something belongs on, or questions getting migrated to a site the author doesn't have an account on, or having a parent site for chat profile, or being unable to relate two questions because one is on a different overlapping site. It will never happen though.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Feb 13 at 21:11
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    @ColleenV that could probably pair well with Laurel's "drop 12/13 of the homepages" below, too. if we're got really good at giving you the exact programming topic you want to see on a single unified homepage on SO, why not extend it to other topics, like biology or law? It'd be a huge social reorg tho
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 21:15
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    If a huge social reorg is on the table, we should also ditch 89.2% of all the help and meta FAQs laying out the thousand little guidelines someone has to know to do things correctly. The learning curve is far too steep for new users and pointing them at all that text and being annoyed they didn't read and understand it all before dipping their toe in is inhumane. Almost everyone learns SE by interacting with people - most of the help is just quoted to add authority to their advice and for the rules-lawyer to argue about the difference between VLQ and NAA.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Feb 13 at 21:54
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    @ColleenV To be fair, I don't think we need a huge social reorg to admit that the Help Center isn't nearly as helpful as it could be.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 22:39
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    Well I think that a lot of the highly-engaged users that know the thousand guidelines and have bookmarks for their favorite instance of where the key ones are written down would be uncomfortable with the sort of streamlining I’m thinking of… I don’t want to reformat them, or clarify them; I want to gut them and see if we really need all that stuff.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Feb 13 at 23:02
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    Ah, you're right, then @ColleenV. That would be a major undertaking. If there are people who want to start on that, I'd enjoy thinking together about how to approach it. It'd involve a lot of breaking folks out of their familiar routines and patterns, which is quite close in spirit to what I'm trying to do with these questions.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 23:06

34 Answers 34

84

Something that has recently annoyed the Community over and over (you did mention it but I think there has to be an answer for it):

LLMs in the public network

There were multiple attempts of you (the company, not any CMs specifically) trying to integrate some LLM that generates text displayed to users. Notable examples of that are the recent Answer Assistent or the Formatting Assistant but my answer isn't just about these experiments/features but more about the sentiment.

These features are generally received very badly by the community. The Moderation strike (that started before the formatting assistant which was released during the strike) showed that pretty well.

There is a rift between you (the company) and the community. Whenever you start an experiment or publish a feature related to LLMs, that rift grows bigger. You can work towards connecting with us (the community) in different ways (e.g. with the Community Asks sprints) but these efforts are undermined as soon as we hear about the newest idea about integrating LLMs into the public network.

So, I am suggesting cutting any LLMs that generate text and display it to users from the public network. I am not saying you shouldn't use machine learning for anything there (hint improving duplicate detection would probably be received well) but sending raw LLM output leads to many issues (there's a reason why most sites don't want it) so - please just stop with it. Please don't integrate LLMs just for the sake of integrating LLMs. If you have a problem you need to solve with ML models, you can try that but don't take a "solution" (LLMs) and look for problems for them.

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    I can't fault you for putting this in an answer; an articulate explanation as to why (like yours) is still beneficial. I think, though, that if we set aside the specific reasons folks dislike LLMs, it's a case example of something M--'s answer tries to touch on. It seems there's something folks find broadly unsatisfactory about how we choose what to test (and not just how we go about testing). I'm not sure community members would necessarily have the words to describe this in depth, but then, I'm not sure I do, either. More to think on...
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 12 at 21:43
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    @Slate I cannot speak for everyone but I feel like many people dislike the idea of generating garbage text (however you use LLMs, they will generate garbage) and throwing it at users (whoever these users are). Until now, your LLM features were exactly that.
    – dan1st
    Commented Feb 12 at 21:52
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    @Slate regarding LLMs in particular, I think the experiments communicate a values dissonance between the company and the community. Every time SE starts an LLM experiment, they seem to be saying "integrating LLMs into the site is our objective, and this experiment will determine whether this specific integration works well" while the community position (or at least mine) is "integrating LLMs into the site is a bad outcome". Commented Feb 12 at 22:31
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    @murgatroid99 suspect you might be getting a lot closer to that more general framing; maybe better phrased as the more general question, "is 'no' an option?"
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 12 at 22:37
  • I think that doesn't extend well to the examples referenced in M--'s answer, because in those cases the problem is primarily about how the feature is implemented more than being about the desirability of the feature itself. Commented Feb 12 at 22:48
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    Tbh on reflection, I don't think my above comments are doing your answer justice. It's really only commenting on one generalization of your answer, but I think your point about LLMs specifically is worth thought. Unfortunately I'm at my EOD, so I'll sleep on it, last comment for today (probably)
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 12 at 23:54
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    @Slate; «It seems there's something folks find broadly unsatisfactory about how we choose what to test», no, that’s a misrepresentation. The community simply does not want generative AI. It is that simple. It’s not about what you «test», the ways you try to use it, how you «test» it. It’s that it’s generative AI. It will never be appreciated by the community, and I think you know that. Commented Feb 13 at 0:00
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    @Slate to be fair, my answer left out LLMs for the reason that I explained; not that it's just about what I touched on, but because the puff around and about "AI" is what that drives many companies and industries today, and puts the CEOs in super cars and leather jackets.
    – M--
    Commented Feb 13 at 4:11
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    @Andreas No argument. Not trying to downplay that the community does not want genAI, and I do know it quite well. At the same time, I don't think reasoning starts and ends with "don't genAI." There are deeper reasons these things happened, and they are worth exploring. For ex.: If GenAI, why not NFTs? To answer that question requires exploration of how the company decides which changes, what technologies and, yes, which tests, are worthwhile. What I was attempting - and I think it inadvertently reads as a dismissal - is that dan1st's answer should generalize to something.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 5:07
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    What about generalizing it to the following: (a) Don't use technologies just for the sake of using these technologies If you have a problem you need to solve and a technology solves it really well, you can use it but don't integrate technologies just so you can say you are state-of-the-art/using these technologies. (b) If you (the company) tried something multiple times and the community hates it every time and you know the community will hate it the next time: Don't do it on the public platform. You don't want to alienate the community more than you did already.
    – dan1st
    Commented Feb 13 at 9:00
  • @Slate if you look at Prosus site you see AI, Then More AI buztalk. Can you blame users for thinking Prosus sees the network at best as a research ground to push its experiments to and at worse as a training material cattle? As for WHY users are against LLM... I said it before. LLM alone ARE STUPID. [cont] Commented Feb 13 at 11:52
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    @Slate [cont] but the company refuses to disclose any form of high level architecture for its experiments - eek, even the PARTNERS ARE SECRET (see FAQS here - meta.stackexchange.com/questions/406307). And yet you folk still wonder "why these evil user suspect we have bad thing to hide when we hide things from them". I assure you that if you lay down at least an high level architecture of an experiment that isn't just a LLM but instead an LLM augmented by other layers (like Copilot does for example) then you may get more reasonable feedback. Commented Feb 13 at 11:57
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    LLM ALONE are useful. As a replacement of Zork, that is. Commented Feb 13 at 11:57
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    @Slate "It seems there's something folks find broadly unsatisfactory about how we choose what to test (and not just how we go about testing)." You think? How could that be. This little gem comes to my mind: We are seeking functional feedback for the formatting assistant. Ignoring that literally every single thing about that idea was horrible, from idea to design to implementation, it was "tactfully" rolled out in the middle of the on-going moderation strike caused by AI content.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 13 at 12:50
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    Maybe I've been too distant but I don't think that users are generally against all AI - mostly just implementations that generate text? I would imagine AI assisted search would be generally beneficial... I'm sure there are other things, too. @Slate forgive me if I'm misinformed but I think that one thing that seems frustrating is that there is limited testing of new GenAI tools (like the answer tool) where preliminary testing indicated it would perform poorly but live site testing was pushed through anyway. If that's so, I would find it particularly frustrating to be in that situation.
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 13 at 19:49
56

Unsolicited experiments and unfinished products

OK, let's be serious. We, "the community", cannot expect to be consulted about every little feature or action that company wants to implement/take. But, at the same time, it is not unreasonable to hope for some meaningful conversations about more elaborated ones.

Obviously, a lot is involved in what, how, and when a certain feature is pursued. But without soliciting feedback early on, chances are that you'll end up with something that is not even a minimum viable product. It is also a waste to not consult a community that has more experience using your product than you, a lot of them are as experienced (if not more) as your developers, and are happy to offer their help for free. I'll go over some recent examples*:

  • Comment Experiment of Stack Overflow: This feature is actually somewhat well-received (I am personally not fond of it). But by the time you've announced it, you were so close to the finish line that had to release it with very little changes due to the feedback you've received. Now, userscripts are broken, UI/UX is sub-optimal, and the feature will probably get tossed.

  • Discussions: From the very beginning, this hasn't been my favorite or others. It was advertised as an alternative for Chat, to add searching capabilities and bring humans to the forefront (whatever that means). Yet, it was released with a buggy UI, no search, got expanded before any data was shared about its success, and ended up infested with spam and low quality posts. If this experiment wasn't expanded before getting necessary updates, you could've had something good, at least useful to some of the users. But rushing it only caused greater pain.

Nobody would want to kill a feature that they worked on for quite a while just a day after its release. So, you'll end up dragging these for a while, wasting more resources on them, and then eventually letting go.

It is wishful thinking, but I hope we can cut the number of uninformed "experiments" and instead focus on many many feature requests that are years and years old, or at least do a better job evaluating the features before investing significant time and resources on them.

* I left out Answer Bot since that will get discussed by others, and is not just about cutting something out. It is also about hopping off the AI hype train.

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    "This feature is actually somewhat well-received" That was until they launched it. Now everyone is hating it. Good idea but poorly executed.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 13 at 12:15
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    Feature (idea) ≠ Implementation (execution)
    – M--
    Commented Feb 13 at 15:03
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    I'd be in favor of more lighter-weight experiments. If they want to get more rapid with the CI/CD, then there needs to be less resources hung up in each individual test, not more... that way, late-stage pivots and community feedback can be taken into account with a lot less pain and friction (at least I'd hope).
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 13 at 18:04
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    @zcoop98 "do a better job evaluating the features before investing significant time and resources on them"; you have worded this in a clearer and more concise way :)
    – M--
    Commented Feb 13 at 18:06
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    I’ve worked on the Comment Experiment and I feel this initial release is pretty lightweight. The intention is just to measure what impact the new dropdown has e.g. do we see fewer comments, fewer comment flags, fewer “thanks” comments. I’d be fine it we turned it back off, if it clearly has a negative impact, because then we would have “failed fast”. It would be a bigger waste of resources to build a fully finished product before releasing it, only then find it has a negative impact.
    – Connell StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 18:46
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    @Connell but the experiment has terrible UX and severely hinders leaving comments in several ways. Like, it's "lightweight" in a similar way as somebody handing you a raw potato can claim it's "a lightweight stew". The impact is going to be that less comments are going to be left overall because of how aggravating it is to do that now.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 13 at 18:54
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    @VLAZ that is one of the things we want to measure. If there are fewer comments overall then we will analyse that and react, perhaps by trying a different UX
    – Connell StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 19:25
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    @Connell your UX is buggy in very obvious ways. I find it disingenuous that you're trying to claim it's not. You're "monitoring" but what you should be doing is fixing it. And making sure to not release half-finished experiments in the future because that hurts your experiments. Less snark this time, let's see if this message survives. I can't make it more pleasant to hear. The company is not getting any more slack for their unfinished work from me. I'm being direct.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 13 at 20:36
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    Let’s not forget the cancelled 1-reputation voting experiment. Commented Feb 13 at 20:51
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    @VLAZ I deleted your prior comment. Please keep in mind the person on the other side of the screen. Echoing the sentiment that ensuring experiments are as bug-free and non-frustrating as possible is important and bears stating, but the way we say it matters.
    – Spevacus Mod
    Commented Feb 13 at 20:55
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    I think this thread shows there is a balance between releasing early with minimal effort vs spending resources on building quality features, and I’m not trying to claim we've got that balance right. I only wanted to answer why experiments may feel unfinished/half-finished - because we try to release something minimal to test ideas first. But we never deliberately introduce bugs or frustrating UX - they’re just human mistakes. We have fixed a couple of bugs already and will continue improving the features as we learn more about them.
    – Connell StaffMod
    Commented Feb 14 at 14:11
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    @Connell What I'm saying is before putting that minimal effort in, discuss the concept so your idea is a bit more mature and free of obvious bugs (obvious to us); the end user who's open to collaborate ... Not taking us up on that offer is just a waste. OK, to make it less personal, let's take Discussions. It was released in NLP, without improvements was expanded to all collectives, and then again to the whole site. And has virtually no support cause everyone moved to other shiny things. It's not you, but the whole concept of throw it at the wall, see if it sticks is broken.
    – M--
    Commented Feb 14 at 14:20
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    There are definitely parts of this process we can improve. I can only really speak from an engineering perspective and was just hoping to give more clarity on that. There are a lot of potentially good ideas, so we try to build them in a way that can prove what works, then we focus on what does. I believe that's a sensible way of working, but it does have its downsides.
    – Connell StaffMod
    Commented Feb 14 at 14:46
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    @Connell Comment experiment broke mod tooling, too. For moderators and curators it is an active obstacle to doing curation. Commented Feb 16 at 17:51
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    @ResistanceIsFutile We are working through the Comment Experiment bugs and feedback on this post - please post specific issues there
    – Connell StaffMod
    Commented Feb 18 at 11:03
49

The idea that we need to get more users to sign up

Many tech companies doggedly pursue higher user counts as a metric of success. But what we need isn't more user accounts, it's more user activity. More questions, more answers, more edits, more voting, etc. That isn't solved by sticking a giant sign-up modal in the face of every casual anonymous browser. I'd argue that giant sign-up modals would drive people away, thus decreasing activity.

Instead of trying to get every browser to create an account, why not just... let them browse? Let them poke around, read answers, click links, and generally see what we have to offer. Then, when they want to do something (i.e. start being active), whether that's voting or asking a question, prompt them to create an account. In this way, making an account is presented as the solution to the user's problem/desire: they need to make an account to do X.

At this point, they've clicked a button to actively do something, and so the pop-up is less of a surprise. We already have plenty of these prompts: if an anonymous user tries to vote, follow, comment, etc. Stepping back from encouraging account creation for the sake of account creation won't stop people from making an account if they need one to participate. It's not hard to create an account if someone wants one. Just... please wait until they want one.

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    To expand on this, I think it's important to try to eliminate the things that block new users from becoming engaged successful members, but: 1) the amount of people blocked by not being able to figure out how to sign up is probably ~zero and 2) as you said, the pop up itself is a blocker to what people usually want to do at that stage, browsing.
    – Laurel
    Commented Feb 13 at 18:21
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    "More questions, more answers, more edits, more voting..." A very worthy goal but I guess much easier said than done. More questions: I don't have question I cannot solve on my own or if I can't I guess not many can here, more answers: takes too much time finding a good question to answer, more edits: possible, more voting: I already vote on almost anything I see, it's second nature by now, but if I see less that is interesting, I may not vote that much. Sure the UI could be more friendly, but this may not be the limiting factor. I wonder what may be that actually. Commented Feb 13 at 21:47
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    @NoDataDumpNoContribution 'takes too much time finding a good question to answer' maybe that's a problem that should be focused on instead of increasing the total number of new questions. Commented Feb 14 at 11:26
  • I want to know what the expected graduation of a new user into an active curator looks like. How many YEARS are we expecting people to dedicate to getting to 2,000+ reputation? Especially on lower-traffic sites. Could we instead make that happen in a month?
    – pkamb
    Commented Feb 14 at 21:10
  • @pkamb did you mean to comment on another answer? Mine is about getting users from "no account" to "new user", not about "new user" to "active curator".
    – bobble
    Commented Feb 14 at 21:37
  • I have mixed feelings on this one, to be honest. I get where you're coming from, and I do understand why you're saying it: a focus exclusively on signups at the expense of other components of the network would indeed be misplaced. At the same time, in theory, signups lead to new user engagement. If / when new user engagement is worth targeting, it makes natural sense to work on signups, too. Which is not a defense of specific methods for getting people to sign up, to be clear, which I think some are reasonably not fond of.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 19 at 21:23
  • @Slate This answer is at least partially an argument against the signups -> user engagement line of thinking. I claim that instead of trying to get the user to sign up first, then hope they use the account later, we should get them to want to engage first, and as a result sign up.
    – bobble
    Commented Feb 19 at 21:25
  • Now, there's an obvious follow-on question, which is whether targeting increasing signups can be naturally expected to lead to increased engagement. I think the answer is "no"; new users who actively participate must obviously have signed up (well, except where anonymous posting is enabled), but not all users who sign up are going to participate. Targeting signups alone may not be sufficient, and probably when and why they sign up makes a significant difference in their long term prognosis. It's a reasonable belief and I suspect it's supported by the evidence.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 19 at 21:25
  • @bobble you ninja'd me with that reply :)
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 19 at 21:26
  • To sum this answer up: Ask yourself: Are these sign up popups placed there in the site owners interest or in the users interest?
    – Jan Doggen
    Commented Feb 20 at 10:32
45

The use of reputation as an indication of experience with the moderation of the site

Unlike Spevacus, I don't support totally removing reputation. As they said, the entire network is built off that system.

However, certainly some of the "hats" reputation wears should be removed.

Most glaringly, reputation is used as an indication of your experience with moderation of the site. But... this often isn't the case. A user with over a million rep flooded the site with thousands of answers against policy, and every so often I see users with hundreds of thousands of reputation post spam/non-answers or robo-review. While these users may have plenty of expertise (or just answered a lot of popular questions), they clearly don't know that much about the moderation of the site.

Meanwhile, there are also plenty of users who know a lot about the moderation of the site, but who don't have expertise in the topic of the site, so aren't very high-rep.

This is a problem. Subject matter expertise does not indicate knowing how to moderate well. That's why moderators are elected, and being a moderator isn't a rep-based privilege.

So, what does indicate that a user knows what they are doing moderation-wise?

Well, we could start with helpful flags. Currently, users gain more flags for the helpful flags they raise, but that's as far as this goes.

  • What if, say, users with a long history of making many and very accurate recommended closure flags were granted the closing privilege, rather than basing it on rep?
  • How about if Low Quality Posts/Low Quality Answers was based on a history of useful and accurate VLQ/NAA flags?
  • Or if the edit privilege was granted to users with a history of good suggested edits?
  • For delete votes, they could be based of a history of helpful flagging for deletion.
  • How about if the ability for protecting questions was granted to users with a history of helpful requests for protection?

We could keep going here, and we should. The best way to ensure that the site has many people helping to moderate and that they know what they're doing is to base moderation privileges off of a history of knowing what you're doing.

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    A big +1. I would love to help out even more than I already do on Information Security, but wait… I can't?! I only have 4.5k rep, meaning I don't even have access to half of the moderator tools that users with >10k rep do. It makes me sad that users who — voluntarily — want to help more simply can't. Commented Feb 12 at 22:30
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    @security_paranoid Same. For the longest time i was trying to get to 500 SO rep to help with queues…and I’ll probably never get 2k/3k
    – Starship
    Commented Feb 12 at 23:14
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    Specifically, this answer by Mithical to the question linked above by Karl already wrote down pretty much all of the points you're raising here: Reputation wearing too many hats, how knowing how to post doesn't equate knowing how a site works/to moderate, a comparison to the current flagging system and tying privileges like access to post queues and votes to deletion to certain types of helpful flags.
    – Tinkeringbell Mod
    Commented Feb 13 at 9:43
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    Um... so, actually... being a moderator (in most cases ) is a rep-based privilege. One of the primary predictors of who will win an election is reputation - remember, half of the max candidate score is rep. Granted, there's always a few counter examples but it's generally (up to 20k rep) pretty consistent.
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 13 at 20:02
  • @Catija Rep is related to it, but its not a rep based privilege. And for the record I completely believe that the candidate score takes rep into account way too much. But, regardless, being a mod requires the following: A.Not being suspended anywhere on the network in the past year B.Getting a bunch of people to believe you'd made a good moderator (with a few exceptions) Not perfect, but much better than "you get X rep now you are automatically a moderator".
    – Starship
    Commented Feb 13 at 21:30
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    I definitely agree with you that rep is an ineffective indicator of moderation experience. It does, however, prompt an interesting question: what's the point of putting "moderation experience" on a numerical scale? Does it make sense at all to say "X person is better than Y person at Moderation Tasks(tm)" except in very broad strokes? We all know a 10k user is probably better at close voting than a 50-rep user. But is someone with 500 close vote reviews more experienced than someone who's raised 200 flags? I don't know if there's a formula for placing curation on a continuous spectrum.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 21:52
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    It's probably true that we could reward curation actions better, but those rewards wouldn't necessarily even correlate with relative experience levels, either. The reality is that, among curators, some people's skillsets are going to be vastly different but nevertheless both important. So a general scale won't necessarily cut it. That prompts the question, then: why do we want one...?
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 21:54
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    @Starship i pulled numbers out of a hat, so don't dwell on them overmuch. I think you got my gist though, that "curation actions" aren't necessarily fungible with each other in the final accounting
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 22:15
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    @VLAZ I liked that work. I don't remember where it lives. Maybe I should go dig it up and reread it
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 22:18
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    @Slate worth clarifying that taking actions doesn't mean you did them correctly. 500 "leave open" reviews on questions that site policy recommends closing clearly indicates a disregard for community policy. As far as I know, nothing draws mod attention to users who consistently vote differently than the final review outcome. Flags at least have something that removes the privilege for high-volume flaggers who regularly have declined flags. Also, check with JNat maybe?
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 14 at 0:18
  • 1
    Sure, it's not automatic like the other privileges but that doesn't make it not rep based ... and, to be clear, there's no "convincing people you would make a good moderator" almost nobody reads any of the candidate statements let alone the answers to questions. Engaged users absolutely care but most of them don't need to read the statements to know who they'd consider a good candidate.
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 14 at 0:26
  • 1
    While there is a way to prevent people with the review privilege from reviewing, as far as I can remember, there's no alert or dashboard that draws mod attention to users who may not be reviewing well. As such, few site mods use or are even aware of what tools do exist. Additionally, while it's possible to review ban someone, it's somehow both too strict (preventing use of all queues simultaneously) and too lax (only removes the review privilege, not the ability to use the related privileges directly, e.g. close vote).
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 14 at 1:19
  • 1
    Personal experience. Compare the view count of questionnaire posts from before the election UI change to the count of votes. Keeping in mind that views by the same user that are >15 minutes apart are counted as separate views, it's pretty obvious that the percentage of users reading that post is minute. As regards to the candidate post... I only have anecdotal experience but I generally know that people don't read stuff, especially when they have easier (and quicker) numbers conveniently placed for easier use.
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 14 at 1:42
  • 1
    Most sites don't have audits and users who want to avoid audits can prettily easily do so.
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 14 at 1:43
38

The limit for gaining reputation for suggested edits.

SE is designed as an information repository, including other people cleaning up and refining that information. Editing is just as much a part of keeping that repository intact as posting, and needs to be better recognized overall, but one of the first steps should be cutting the 1,000 rep limit for what you can gain from suggested edits. If you've submitted 500 approved suggested edits, chances are you can also submit 1,000, and at that point (really long before) you should definitely be able to earn the privilege to edit unilaterally based on your previous activity.

17
  • 2
    I wonder how many people have hit this cap; you need a lot of suggested edits (>500) and not a lot of actual posting (<1000 rep gained via votes/bounties). I would normally consider myself extremely prolific as an editor, but I don't think I've come close to this.
    – Laurel
    Commented Feb 12 at 21:08
  • 2
    I've personally gotten over 600 rep from suggested edits on a single site, so I imagine people are out there hitting the cap :)
    – Mithical
    Commented Feb 12 at 21:10
  • 8
    To be honest, I'd almost be inclined to one-up you here and say that the ability to edit freely should be decoupled from rep entirely (and then maybe the rep increased a tad). Sort of merge this w/ what Mad Scientist wrote below. It seems like it would be more germane design if users were able to freely edit once they accrued, suppose, at least 10 edits & over 85% approved or something. I agree tho, the sheer amount of work in suggested edits must not have been given much weight originally in calculating the # of edits to gain the priv.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 12 at 21:30
  • I'll be honest, @Slate, I got into that more deeply in an answer linked by Spevacus - this is more an extremely simple, mostly symbolic step that could be taken in that direction
    – Mithical
    Commented Feb 12 at 21:32
  • 1
    Oh, which answer? I'm curious to go read it
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 12 at 21:32
  • this answer about rep wearing too many hats, @Slate
    – Mithical
    Commented Feb 12 at 21:33
  • 1
    sweet, & a very good answer at that. (Frankly it occurs to me that a lot of rep-based answers to this question are going to be rehashing stuff wrote there, too)
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 12 at 21:36
  • @Laurel I'm probably going to soon on SO
    – Starship
    Commented Feb 12 at 22:02
  • 1
    "It seems like it would be more germane design if users were able to freely edit once they accrued, suppose, at least 10 edits & over 85% approved or something." While I agree with the idea, I think 10 edits isn't sufficient at all. There are many people who are posting edits that aren't that good and still getting approved or worse: abusive behavior using edits (e.g. socks). If people could freely edit after just 10 approved edits, they would probably be able to easily do damage before mods notice the abusive edits.
    – dan1st
    Commented Feb 13 at 9:08
  • People shouldn't be doing edits for the purpose of gaining rep in the first place. How about getting rid of the reputation gain instead? It would surely do wonders for the sad state of the suggested edits queue over at SO. Similarly, people shouldn't be getting rep for doing reviews either.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 13 at 12:25
  • 4
    On the contrary, @Lundin, I think it'd make sense to increase the rep given for edits, and incentivize editing more. We should be encouraging editing almost on the par of posting
    – Mithical
    Commented Feb 13 at 12:37
  • @Mithical And what if a lot of people are like me and couldn't care less about rep? Once you've unlocked all privileges, rep becomes useless. This is not nearly enough incentive to do boring busy-work for free, for the benefit of yet another soulless American IT company. Then I might as well do that boring busy-work for free for an open-source, community-driven non-profit alternative, yeah?
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 13 at 12:59
  • 2
    I am all for finding ways to reward editors. I say this as someone with a not earth shattering, but not paltry 275 approved suggested edits and 3k edits (to non self posts). But I'm also curious how many people are realistically going to be impacted. Looks like there's only about ~600 potentially eligible folks on SO (with >500 approved suggested edits)
    – KyleMit StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 14:44
  • 5
    Of course, the ultimate goal is to get people to have enough trust in the system where they don't need clog up the suggested edit queue. But rep rewards for unilateral edits seems much trickier. Suggested edits tend to have to be fairly high in quality to get approved. But I might just fix a couple big typos in a unilateral edit (if there are no other substantial issues that need fixing). And I actually feel a little better that folks don't think I'm trying to farm rep with just minor tweaks.
    – KyleMit StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 14:46
  • 1
    It's worth pointing out that there is a huge difference between removing the rep cap for edit suggestions and giving users an avenue to free editing without a minimum amount of reputation. The former could potentially allow users to earn up to 2k rep from suggestions (plus or minus any rep earned/ lost otherwise) while the latter would actually make it less likely a user would even earn 1k rep from suggestions.
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 14 at 0:37
37

Remove the per-site varying daily spam flag limit

Tl;dr either have one limit for spam flags across all sites (castable anywhere) or have one limit applied to all sites (if my limit is x on SO, it's also x on every other site).

Background

The concept seems reasonable: more experience with flags means you got more flags, but that has issues with spam in practice

While a some sites may have slightly different rules on self-promotion, unlike an off-topic flag, no site expertise is required to know this is spam:

Score pro Loan App Customer" Care Helpline Number??))+91-5551239876 @! 5551239876-??Calhh

Score pro Loan App Customer" Care Helpline Number??))+91-5551239876 @! 5551239876-??Calhh Score pro Loan App Customer" Care Helpline Number??))+91-5551239876@! 5551239876-??Calhh th

Post by andncn Jxjfj on Super User licensed under CC BY-SA 4.0, with the phone number changed.

Sure, this one's from SU. But it's still be spam on AU. Or MSE. Or SF.

Proposal

I propose that the "max allowable spam flags per day per site" is the same for all sites, and it's calculated based on your network-wide flagging history.

A slight variation on this is to remove the "per site" entirely, meaning "you have n flags today, and you may use them anywhere. Want to cast them all on SO? Great! Want to split them between SU and SF? Great"

12
  • While at it, also remove or increase the "absolute" limit (100 flags per day), see meta.stackexchange.com/q/406008/1422281 for details.
    – B-Tech
    Commented Feb 13 at 8:54
  • 1
    Let me ask then -- Why uncap just spam flags? I'm tempted to say that the flag limit could be done away with, provided it came with a couple other tweaks (e.g. mods would need some way to bulk-clear flags if the limits were removed, but arguably they could use that right now anyway).
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 14:43
  • 2
    @Slate I say uncap spam flags once you have a certain number of helpful spam flags. Otherwise someone with 4 15 rep accounts could use a program to nuke the whole site
    – Starship
    Commented Feb 13 at 15:35
  • 1
    @Starship And unfortunately we've seen people in the past who would indeed try to take down content that way.
    – Mast
    Commented Feb 13 at 16:23
  • 2
    there'd undoubtedly need to be some measure of abuse prevention
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 16:37
  • @Mast That kind of surprises me, to be honest. I'd figure that the only people who would have that level of knowledge about the system to do such a thing would be the people responsible enough not to do that.
    – Starship
    Commented Feb 13 at 17:58
  • 3
    @Slate RE "just spam flags" because users don't (to my knowledge) take an off-topic and then post it hundreds/thousands of times across many sites. It can be nice if off-topic questions get flagged, but I think there's a much bigger need to be able to remove spam quickly. Flagging as off-topic can need some site familiarity (or at least the Tour). Spam... doesn't.
    – cocomac
    Commented Feb 13 at 18:32
  • @Mast RE abuse: I'm not sure what you mean. If the non-pooled approach was selected, the socks' flag limit would be the exact same as it is now. I was thinking that after responsible flagging, the increased limit would carry over to all sites (e.g., your max on all sites is max([SU max, SF max, AU max, ...])) where AU max would just be the AU max under the current system. I guess it'd be easier to attack multiple sites, but it shouldn't help someone attacking a single site.
    – cocomac
    Commented Feb 13 at 18:38
  • 1
    @cocomac That's fair, I'm just thinking about parsimony. Removing the limit on one flag is not parsimonious, since it actually increases the net complexity - after, one tag (probably secretly) works just slightly different than all the rest. If the complexity can be avoided safely, e.g. by just ripping the whole thing out, then probably it should be avoided...
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 19:03
  • @Slate "there'd undoubtedly need to be some measure of abuse prevention" Why not implement that on the Q&A level then so people can't post spam in the first place. As done by every other company out there, Facebook et al. Instead of relying on volunteers and scripts developed by volunteers.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 14 at 8:43
  • 4
    @Lundin "What can be cut away, and why?" - all the support spammers, they can go! :)
    – cocomac
    Commented Feb 14 at 8:48
  • @cocomac Wait, aren’t we supposed to be inclusive and include support phone spammers in our community /s
    – Starship
    Commented Mar 4 at 22:32
27

Get rid of 12 out of 13 of all those different homepages, leaving one to customize

I brought this up before several times, and unfortunately nobody had any idea what I was talking about (this is part of the problem). I'll try to explain again. See the left sidebar? There's "Home" and there's "Questions" and there's "Unanswered". Each of those pages has different tabs, some of which are slightly different (e.g., downvoted post filtering on "Home") and some of which are duplicates. There are maybe 13 views total per site, though some sites have more. It is not obvious how to navigate this, which has lead to:

  • Vandalism and spam sitting around because it scored -4 or lower and nobody was using the "active but includes downvotes" view. (You're never told that downvotes affect certain pages.)
    • The same but it was a downvoted post (e.g., on meta) that people actually wanted to see. (MSE's homepage was changed to prevent this from happening but it still happens everywhere else.)
  • Some sort of cult worship of the homepage where we can't bump more than 5 things every day, lest other people lose all access to recent Q&A
  • Complaints about the Community bot bumping stuff
  • Everything is a list of questions, making it harder to appreciate new answers

Now, there's a project changing the homepage already on SO, but this has not been well received because it's showing people stuff that's not relevant to them or something. We should give a good default view for those who haven't made their own (perhaps chosen by moderators and the community of each site) but let's not lose the power we currently have to see different lists of questions.

I want to be able to customize the homepage (i.e., where I go when I click the logo meta.stackexchange.com) and only have the tabs I want, some of which I made myself. I want more options, like filtering out edits or Community bumps.

Honestly I can't remember how the "New Nav" worked exactly but it was close to what I want because it was on the homepage and was easy to access:

home, votes, active, Java, Regex tabs

I think there are exciting ways this could be expanded. For example, on some social media sites, user-created algorithms can be voted on, so the most useful can rise to the top. (Look up Bluesky feed generators.)

8
  • For posterity, Q: Questions missing in "active", where I brought this up previously, currently sits at -5. Read if you dare; my post today is largely the same in terms of arguments, despite being a complete rewrite.
    – Laurel
    Commented Feb 12 at 22:41
  • I think we should have multiple homepages: "reader", "answerer", "curator". "Reader" has whatever magic heuristics SO thinks are best for read-only / anonymous users, "answerer" shows you "was recently unanswered" questions (so FGITW doesn't take them out of the list too soon), and "curator" is the firehose of spam we all know and love. (Maybe these can be preset tabs.)
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Feb 13 at 1:15
  • @wizzwizz4 I'm not against presets (especially if a user can delete them), but I don't like magic. Why not show whatever options are selected for those tabs?
    – Laurel
    Commented Feb 13 at 1:21
  • 1
    I imagine the "answerer" and "curator" tabs would be non-magic, but SO might want to use a Clever Algorithm? for their "casual reader front page": I'm not sure that their current algorithm can be broken into user-configurable parts. (If it can, then great: magic-free it is.)
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Feb 13 at 1:24
  • @wizzwizz4 The current algorithm is something like "all unlocked posts scoring >-4, sorted by active", at least on most sites.
    – Laurel
    Commented Feb 13 at 2:23
  • 9
    I appreciate the call out of the home page worship; the complaints in that family ("hey, stop editing so much, you're clogging up the homepage") have always rubbed me the wrong way; like, isn't the fact that a user can earnestly do something good, but be "disruptive" if they do that thing "too much", a design problem? Why on earth did we ever come to accept that users making too many good edits too quickly could be disruptive? That's... dumb, IMO, and fixable with better homepage design.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 13 at 18:14
  • 1
    @zcoop98 To be honest, I was blown away when I realized sites like Wikipedia don't have this same problem. As a result, Wikipedia in particular seems to have a thriving edit-bot ecosystem, which would be cool to replicate on SE.
    – Laurel
    Commented Feb 13 at 18:35
  • 2
    I mentioned this one in the comments on the original question but I actually strongly agree with this, and I feel absolutely no reservations about it. The landing page experience is very complicated and should be purpose-built to serve the people who use it. I'd be fine if we had, for example, separate landing pages for focusing on answers vs curation, but really the complexity here should be limited. The fact that there are so many options that provide so many different or unclear views is not good UX. I feel quite strongly that we can do better.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 19 at 21:35
27

The 'very low quality' flag on questions, at least in its current form.

There is no consistent guidance on how users should use this flag on questions, or how moderators should handle them. Some will just close the question, marking the flag helpful, others will say only flag as 'very low quality' if the question needs to be immediately deleted, yet others will say not to use the 'very low quality' flag on questions at all ever.

The flag pushes questions into Low Quality Posts, or Triage, which then either results in closure directly or the question going to Close Votes, which could have been accomplished already via a close vote/flag.

The flag description is somewhat vague:

This question has severe formatting or content problems. This question is unlikely to be salvageable through editing, and might need to be removed.

What constitutes salvageable through editing? Arguably any closable question for a reason that cannot be easily fixed (by the author or community) is unsalvageable, but again, we already have close flags/votes for that.

I am not saying this flag on questions has to go, but the current form is quite useless, and needs serious revision of not being removed entirely. For example, the flag could be designated for questions that need to be deleted by a moderator immediately (posts that just have to go but are not immediately spam or abusive), and that is the policy enforced network-wide.

5
  • 2
    Yeah, people don't agree with what this flag means. I once had the frustrating experience of an NAA being declined with a custom message telling me to use a VLQ, then having the VLQ declined, by a (presumably different) moderator, as the inappropriate flag type.
    – bobble
    Commented Feb 14 at 4:06
  • @bobble Yeah, that sounds frustrating.
    – CPlus
    Commented Feb 14 at 4:06
  • 2
    Honestly from a mod side and drawing on past experience, I'd almost consider NAA/VLQ redundant answer flags. Usually things that are actually "very low quality" are also not an answer to the question. It's very difficult to imagine an answer that actually answers the question, yet is also somehow completely unsalvageable. As for the question VLQ flag, I do think there's more grey area here, though it tends to be redundant with closure as you say. Still scrutinizing this one to dream up a reason why the flag might cover grey area worth keeping, but I'm turning up empty...
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 19 at 21:55
  • @Slate at some point, there were proposals to make the flag a "delete this pls". At some point Shog argued against it because it enumerated badness, but that's exactly where we are, except that different people have different lists.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 24 at 20:43
  • I would even say that VLQ should be removed on answers too. It's completely useless on questions and pretty annoying on answers. The hidden behaviours are very confusing and bad user experience for everyone.
    – Dharman
    Commented Feb 27 at 14:37
26

Remove reputation requirement to observe most privileges in action

Here is the thing - there is the old Internet wisdom of "lurk moar". An ancient incantation instructing newbies that they can observe the system to understand the system.

This is not really possible with the Stack Exchange sites. You get drip-fed privileges which is fair* - users do not need to be able to do everything from the get-go. However, the way the system works also makes it opaque what actually happens. In practice, a user can be on the site for months, or years, and not have a clue how things operate. Many users believe "admins" rule over the place and enforce their will by closing and/or deleting questions. However, most of the times closure is done by regular users, deletion may not even be done by a user.

At least for me, it was jarring getting access to new site mechanics. Because suddenly, you get an upvote and you get a whole thing you can do that you never had before. And you have no observation how it was used. Like closure - you cannot see close votes until you can vote to close. You did not have the opportunity to observe the system before you were made part of it. Same with the review queues.

In most cases, I see no reason to hide these site mechanics. A user with access to see review queues but not do actions in the review queues is only going to be more informed. And probably better prepared when they eventually get the review privilege.

Not everything needs to be exposed. The 10k/25k stats for example. They are not even site mechanics.

The network nominally prides itself on how community-driven it is. But it hides how community-driven it is from new users. And many new users take the wrong assumption then, that some single entity is haunting them. Not that different users on the system are actually doing a lot of the stuff.

* There are separate discussions to be had whether we even need this to be rep-based. I am really into the idea of removing rep requirement. But this will not be part of my answer. If rep is removed from privileges, I think the answer should still stand.

3
  • 6
    Great point. The fact that review queues, etc., are basically hidden to new users until they have the ability to take action on those queues themselves does nothing to introduce them to the feature ahead of time and help them learn how to use those features.
    – V2Blast
    Commented Feb 14 at 4:01
  • 3
    I have wondered in the past about displaying a condensed timeline next to questions in order to aid education. Help people understand how the site works a bit. Imagine something that shows "Question posted" > "First close vote cast" > "Sent to close votes review queue" > "Question aged out of review queue" with timestamps and appropriate links to explanations for what each event is / means...
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 19 at 22:24
  • 1
    Not saying this is what we'd go with but more to say that I think your idea here has merit, and we should be showing users this stuff more readily with clearer process explanations. Though it would probably represent additions to the network in order to get that info in front of users, I'll allow it as it's within the spirit of the question ;)
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 19 at 22:25
26

Maybe, just maybe, remove/cut down/reduce ... the special treatment of Stack Overflow.

You know about the many smaller, lovely sites that are islands of expert knowledge. But it seems like most of the focus is on Stack Overflow, your flagship site. I am not saying you should ignore the needs of Stack Overflow but I think you should also work on what's needed for smaller sites.

Let's take a look at a few major efforts that were focused on Stack Overflow:

  • The Staging Ground. It is only available on Stack Overflow even though some other sites would love to have some support for similar things (e.g. Code Golf and Worldbuilding have their own sandboxes). These sites could greatly benefit from having the option (but this decision should be made by the communities of the corresponding sites and not be forced upon any site) and be sufficiently configurable to be actually useful for these sites. See also this MSE answer by pxeger, this MSE question by Rebecca J. Stones or this chat message from VLAZ
  • Discussions. While this was generally not that well received, it was made available only on Stack Overflow.
  • Collectives. Similar to Discussions, these were released only for Stack Overflow.

Maybe show some love to the needs of smaller sites.

11
  • 11
    Yeah, I'm honestly really torn on this one. I think you're right that there's a lot of value in the broader network that we don't really build upon. Well, to be frank, it's not really a "network" insofar as it's 190 separate communities; what binds us together is not often deeper than a shared philosophy and a platform. Sometimes we don't even get the shared philosophy. At the same, there's no denying that SO is the flagship community, and is essentially responsible for the lion's share of traffic.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 12 at 22:52
  • 5
    It's never been easy to balance, and I don't think it's gotten easier. Stack Overflow is undeniably in urgent need of attention. The rest of the network needs love, though, which is also undeniable. Even if I had the power to allocate all the resources in the company, I don't think I'd be completely sure what the right way to cut that balance is myself
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 12 at 22:59
  • 2
    I agree that this is hard. But if a feature is rolled out to Stack Overflow, maybe also make it work for smaller sites and allow them to opt-in? For example, I don't really see a good reason why a site shouldn't be allowed from opting in to discussions (other than "We've done it that way") if the community of that site wants discussions (to be honest, I think discussions might work better on smaller sites if the community of that site is interested in it).
    – dan1st
    Commented Feb 12 at 23:02
  • 4
    Frankly I don't know why we couldn't do that, either, except that no one's requested it (to my knowledge) and so we haven't had a chance to explore the question. Which isn't a "yes we definitely can do that," to be clear, lol.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 12 at 23:12
  • I guess nobody asking for it is a good point. But I remember that people did ask for it in the Staging Ground which now graduated to a standard feature of SO without any mention of its use on other sites. Once you make it optional, would it be much work to allow other sites to opt-in (maybe with all users including possible reviewers being allowed to ask questions in the Staging Ground)?
    – dan1st
    Commented Feb 12 at 23:33
  • 4
    Catch-22, right? No one's going to ask for it if they don't know it's an option. SE probably isn't going to seriously explore whether it's an option until someone asks for it. I/CMs are probably not going to recommend people to put the effort into proposing it unless we know there's gonna be some follow-through. It was definitely mentioned, but that's not quite the same as a community going "please, here!" yanno?
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 12 at 23:43
  • 1
    @Slate, if a feature is initially only considered for SO, is it much to ask that they are implemented in such a way that they are only a feature-toggle away from being made available to other sites? Commented Feb 13 at 12:17
  • Puzzling does not use its sandbox, and when we tried to force people to go through a sandbox step, there was massive pushback. We don't want a Staging Ground feature. (Code Golf might, from what I know of their site culture, but we definitely don't.)
    – bobble
    Commented Feb 13 at 17:33
  • @bobble Thank you for that comment. I thought it was some sort of optional sandbox. I removed it from my post.
    – dan1st
    Commented Feb 13 at 17:38
  • 1
    @BartvanIngenSchenau That's generally the goal, yes - but sometimes it's not so easy, and there's a wide gulf between "no work" and "a bit of work." The exact reasons why aren't ones I've personally explored much, since I haven't done dev work at Stack.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 21:10
  • @slate, it's true, if you water the weeds they might grow better. Non SO sites should get more love, and they used to get some. For example the photo of the week contest and display in an advertisement spot (like on Photo and Travel .SE), great additions. Or disclaimers like on Medical or Religious sites, or MathJax on many sites; none of the above available on Stack Overflow - love for the other sites, which seems to have not gone beyond what the few sites already have. If it's not SO or Teams (and $$$) then ??.
    – Rob
    Commented Feb 20 at 3:56
25

The usual upfront: This post is the opinion of balpha-the-person, not balpha-the-company-representative. It's not representing the opinions or policies of Stack Overflow.

By the way, am I putting this disclaimer here because the company doesn't want me to say any of this? Absolutely not. The company is actually okay if we express our own opinions. They just want us to be very clear about that fact when we do, so that you don't read "Stack Overflow says ..." in the press the next day. I think that's fair.


I believe that the biggest thing we need to cut from all of it (from the product, from the processes, from the way of thinking on both the company and the community side), is the disregard of the human element.

From the product

A defining trait of the Stack Exchange model has always been the understanding that "it's about the post, not the person". We tell people that a downvote isn't about the author but the content. We discourage salutations and thank yous because we consider them noise.

This makes things easy, because we don't have to consider the messiness that is human experience.

There is solace in objectivity.

Aspiring photographers love to obsess over sharpness and "correct" exposure because it's (kinda) objectively measurable, unlike fluffy concepts like good composition, interesting subjects, or simply "a good photo".

Programmers like discussing cyclomatic complexity because it's an objectively defined concept, while "readable and understandable code" is not.

There is solace in objectivity, and Stack Overflow takes that to the extreme.

To be fair, over the years we have actually made many concessions to human nature. There's Meta, because navel gazing and discussion about the site is just something that people want to do. There's comments, because we realized that in a system with real humans, "questions and answers only, please" is not a realistic thing. There's the Third Place because sometimes humans just want to hang out and chat. But there's also more recent stuff like the Staging Ground, which I see as an acknowledgement of the fact that not all Stack Overflow journeys start equal, because people are diverse.

But despite those, the philosophy of extreme objectivity is still rampant, and it's what gives Stack Overflow its reputation of being unwelcoming. And sure, we can blame individual users for having an attitude to newcomers, but matter of fact is: We teach them that attitude!

The sentence "Technically correct is the best kind of correct" is a joke, poking fun at lack of empathy and nuance. Except on Stack Overflow. Here, this sentence is a guiding philosophy, and we've built it that way.

So, am I saying that we should just stop with demanding facts, specific questions, low noise? No.

But we must find ways for achieving those things while still acknowledging that behind that 32x32 pixel avatar is a human, somewhere in the world, novice or experienced, hobbyist or professional, and each with their own interests, preferences, and personality traits.

In my response to "What's on your mind?" I wrote that back when Stack Overflow was created, people used the internet in a much more transactional way than they do today.

The internet of 2025, for better or for worse, is a place where humans live. They don't want to leave their humanity at the door.

From the company's way of thinking

Remember what I wrote above? I even put it in italics.

There is solace in objectivity, and Stack Overflow takes that to the extreme.

Oh boy, is that doubly true for how we work as a company. For the past 10+ years, we should have been developing a vision for how Stack Overflow can evolve, and then work towards that vision by making decisions, executing on them, and iterating. Instead, we invented new metrics that we sought to improve, built things that we thought would achieve that, measured a bunch of things, and then moved on to the next thing.

Sometimes we admitted that a bet didn't pay off.

Sometimes we just left half-done features sitting there.

And over time, we've done more and more measuring and less and less building. Yes, I'm talking extremes here. It's not like we've done nothing. But we definitely could've been doing a lot more.

Hey balpha! Weren't you going to talk about the "human element"? This is just a rant about product development at every single company in the world.

I'm getting to that. The thing about building new things, making an impact, improving on the status quo, is making bets and taking risks. And that's uncomfortable, because it means that failure has to be an option. And people don't like being uncomfortable, so we rather conduct yet another A/B test instead of saying "We're doing this thing, because we believe it's the right thing. We may be wrong."

How do we get back to a place where we humans are comfortable with taking those risks? By embracing the option of failure. By ensuring that everyone knows that we won't laugh at you or punish you if a reasonable bet doesn't pan out.

In my answer that I mentioned earlier, I also wrote this:

Some people (myself included) are going to be unhappy because those things were important to them. Let's be empathetic with those people, let's allow them their grief, and let's explain to them why we believe we're doing the right thing in order to fulfill that original vision. And let's not do that explaining with a press release and platitudes, but by talking to them eye-to-eye.

Yep, that's vital. A lot of the recent company communication feels like wordsmithed committee-polished PR statements that have every last ounce of humanity removed from them.

And I understand that we're a subsidiary of a publicly traded company and that we have people whose job it is to ensure that we don't accidentally put our foot in our mouth. They want to remove every bit of risk for misunderstanding. That's literally their job, and they're doing it well.

But there must be a middle ground somewhere, where we can actually communicate with the community as humans-to-humans.

From Meta's way of thinking

This isn't just about the company though. It also goes to y'all here on Meta. Knee-jerk "who moved my cheese" complaints are nothing new here, they've existed from day one. I've definitely done my own share of those back in the day.

But there is a line where at-least-somewhat-constructive turns into actively-dehumanizing, like the comment I'm responding to here. And I'm not even calling out that particular commenter -- their comment received 75 upvotes, so clearly they weren't alone.

I mean, yes, we as a company have been making it easy for people to be angry at us. But we're not (only) an amorphous corporate blob, we're also a collection of individual humans, most of whom are amazing people who want to do the right thing.

And if these humans can expect that Meta is just going to s????+?????|????t????? on them if they post anything here, then it's no surprise that fewer and fewer do.

So here's my ask for you, Meta: Absolutely continue to demand that Stack Exchange Inc. DBA Stack Overflow come back to communicating with you at eye level. "Keep community at our center" is one of our publicly stated core values, after all.

But also do your part in bringing back the human element. Both here on Meta itself, and out there on the Stack Exchange network.

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    I often can't tell if the people announcing changes believe the changes they're announcing are good, or even participated in design or decision making. when I question changes, it's pretty often that I don't get a response, leaving me feeling like I'm just thinking aloud at a top-down message. how much human element can I realistically bring in the case that that's reality and not just my imagination? it's hard to want to bring a human element when I feel like I'm talking to a decision rather than a human.
    – starball
    Commented Feb 20 at 7:49
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    I think there's the other parts of the human element - our best sometimes get burnt out, and there's various stages of bitterness. I've days where I feel like the metaphorical warm dump on someone's equally metaphorical lawn might have been a better approach than measured (if emotional) appeals for the company to do the right thing by the community. The human side's a little broken and jaded, and well, it might be good to try to mend that on the community's side too. Commented Feb 20 at 9:00
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    The apparent overuse of A/B tests in place of actually arguing and examining the details of a feature is something I noticed. I only see a tiny part of the process here in the official announcements, so I can't be sure about any of this. But my impression is that SE is data-driven in a bad way in many cases, too much focus on metrics that simply don't measure the right things and don't capture the whole story. And I think it is fair to say that parts of the community do forget that there are humans at the other end, whether those are employees or other users, especially new ones. Commented Feb 20 at 10:33
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    @starball I completely agree, there's a big onus on the company here. Maybe you (not just you personally, but "you the amorphous non-corporate blob that is MSE") could start by appreciating those staff members that are actually trying to talk to you. Even if you do not like their responses (it's not like unpopular company decisions are a new thing).
    – balpha StaffMod
    Commented Feb 21 at 7:09
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    @JourneymanGeek Honestly, warm dumps might sometimes have their place, too. But yes, they can't be the default mode of operation. That would ... stink.
    – balpha StaffMod
    Commented Feb 21 at 7:17
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    @MadScientist Well said. Let me add one thing though: There are very capable user researchers at the company who try to understand the community beyond just MSE, because the Meta crowd is probably not very representative. So that's actually a good thing, I think. That said, what often feels overlooked is an important things that this Meta crowd does have: Context.
    – balpha StaffMod
    Commented Feb 21 at 7:57
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    @MadScientist Here's a great recent example. There's a lot of "I hate change" responses there, and that's kinda expected, that always happens. But there's also reasonable, more nuanced responses (like your own), and finally there's also "Hey, you should think about snippets more", followed by "Oh you're right". That's the context proving useful. I think the company should make use of that more. But all the not-always-reasonable yelling on that whole page also shows why that's not easy.
    – balpha StaffMod
    Commented Feb 21 at 7:57
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    I appreciate Slate, you, Aaron, Yaakov, Catija, and V2Blast. If you're talking about people who mostly just make announcements and sometimes reply in those, my honest reaction is... how, and why? I'm not going to make a habit of posting "ty for the announcement / reply" all the time, and even inviting the person to chat to say that just doesn't feel genuine. I can and do genuinely express thanks in reply to announcements when I like what's being announced. Staff hanging out in chat sometimes or just participating around meta would go a long way in giving me opportunities to be friendly.
    – starball
    Commented Feb 21 at 11:12
  • @starball Yeah, that's all I'm asking.
    – balpha StaffMod
    Commented Feb 21 at 11:28
  • You say "we're also a collection of individual humans, most of whom are amazing people who want to do the right thing" - I know that, but in recent years it's more and more obvious those amazing people are being blocked and muted by management, and that is a pity.
    – user152859
    Commented Feb 22 at 17:14
  • I'm glad you feel like you can share your personal opinions on meta. I frequently didn't. Maybe that was just the timing or the difference of roles - or maybe it was just me... but I seldom felt that I could be honest, which was at least part of why my meta participation dropped significantly. That said, I think my answer and yours come from very similar places, even if they say it in different ways. There's not much I hate - I hate the "votes aren't personal" attitude that so many people here have. I'm still one of the staunchest advocates for downvotes.
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 24 at 20:38
  • Someone coming to meta and being upset about downvotes may be old hat and frustrating to people on meta but it may be new to them. Being told "votes aren't personal" is not the "kindness" people seem to think it is. It's incredibly invalidating of their feelings. Just because some people can shrug off downvotes easily doesn't mean everyone can. People looking for explanations of why they were downvoted is valid - even if they just want to argue, they might want to actually fix the problem. We get so stuck in the patter that we forget that life isn't scripted.
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 24 at 20:43
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    I also advocated for there being a broader collection of people communicating to meta and helped coworkers who wanted to post their own discussions both before they posted and after - to help add context they might not be aware of. It's definitely important - regardless of the situation - that expectations should be set in advance. While it's helpful, saying "this post will be monitored until (date)" isn't quite enough. The best case would be for someone (not necessarily the poster) to engage with answers in a visible and meaningful way. I haven't always managed this myself, so it's not easy.
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 24 at 22:08
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    @Catija Well, this is a personal opinion in a hypothetical meta discussion. As soon as something has (or is perceived by someone to have) announcement character, it's a whole other story. For example, this post had to be reviewed by multiple departments, and I had to actively argue for being able to write it in my own voice. As a CM, you worked much closer to "current events", so I'm not surprised to hear that it was harder to be yourself.
    – balpha StaffMod
    Commented Feb 25 at 10:54
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    @Catija And understandably, a lot of people are not going to bother navigating that tightrope, and rather than risk being reprimanded for violating some communications policy, they simply avoid interacting with Meta altogether, and just leave that to someone else.
    – balpha StaffMod
    Commented Feb 25 at 10:54
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My initial instinct when seeing this question was to draw attention to a process/policy that I think most people wouldn't even think about - that an answer being verifiably wrong is not a reason to delete it and it should be downvoted instead.

This has often confused me. I understand the argument - I just don't agree. The primary issue with the argument is that it relies on users actually voting and leaving comments to inform future users that the answer is wrong. Unfortunately, if no one is around to leave those breadcrumbs, the answer is just an answer.

As such, I went searching for data to help show how voting has changed since 2015 but ended up leaning on data I could get without SEDE, like the (all-time) vote history of the 20 highest-volume voters on SO in 2025.

I discovered that only five of the 20 upvote more than they downvote and that, combined, their all-time 1.4 million votes were downvotes 87% of the time. That would be great for my argument except that, 75% of those votes are on questions, with only two of the 20 voting more on answers than questions.

While I know that not all users will follow the patterns of these 20, I wondered - "If the top voters are voting so little on answers -

  • Is anyone voting on answers?
  • Is the foundation the platform was built on even still sound?
  • If people don't vote on answers, is SO even useful?

So, I needed more info. I collected all-time and recent data about both questions and answers and focused far more broadly than score... using on site search. Meaning my info doesn't include deleted stuff. I also chose to only look at open questions and only looked at data through the end of 2024, so nothing was too new to have gotten votes. I'd say it's fair to call my numbers a "best case scenario".

I looked at:

  • Are there still more answers than questions? - yes, about 1.3 answers per question.
  • What percentage of questions are still getting at least one answer? 55%.
  • What percentage of questions get at least two answers? 20%.
    • Well, I guess you don't need to rank answers if 74% of answered recent questions only have one answer.
  • Do recent questions ever get lots of answers? Yes - 603 questions from 2022-2024 have 10 or more answers.
    • Fun fact - 3 of those qualify as "Unanswered".
  • What percentage of answers have a score of 0 or less? 53%
  • Wait... so half of recent non-deleted answers have a score of zero or less? In fact, half have a score of exactly 0. Only 3% of recent answers on SO have a score less than 0.
  • Questions are doing better, right? Worse. 63% of recent, non-deleted questions have a score of 0 or less. 55% have a score of 0.

You'd think that - as the person who (literally) brought you the 1 rep to vote concept - I'd have looked at some data to support the necessity of increasing voting on SO, so I'd be talking about stuff I learned in 2023. You would be wrong. If anyone looked at this data, it wasn't shared with me, as far as I can remember.

So, here's most of the info I got from my searches on Stack Overflow -

"Answerable" question data

Here's a comparison of the "answerable"? question status on Stack Overflow up to the end of 2024 ("All-time") and for 2022 - 2024. Due to the Roomba cleanup that deletes unanswered, zero-score questions after a year, I'll also include info for 2022 - 17 Feb 2024 - labeled "Roomba" in the table.

Question category All-time % 22-24 % Roomba %
"Answerable" questions? 23.1m N/A 2.5m N/A 2.1m N/A
Question score >0 11.4m 49% 901k 36% 792k 37%
Question score <1 11.7m 51% 1.6m 64% 1.3m 63%
Questions with at least one answer 20.0m 87% 1.9m 75% 1.7m 78%
Questions with at least two answers 8.0m 34% 479k 19% 429k 20%
Questions with "Accepted" answer - % of all Qs 11.8m 51% 928k 37% 822k 39%
Questions with "Accepted" answer - % of Qs with >0 answers 11.8m 87% 928k 90% 822k 90%
Questions with zero answers 3.1m 13% 637k 25% 461k 22%
"Answered" questions§ 15.8m 69% 1.3m 51% 1.1m 54%
"Answered" due to accepted answer - % of all Qs 2.3m 10% 266k 11% 233k 11%
"Answered" due to accepted answer - % of "Answered" 2.3m 15% 266k 20% 233k 20%
"Unanswered" questions§ 7.3m 31% 1.2m 49% 967k 46%
"Unanswered" with at least one answer - % of "Unanswered" 4.2m 57% 588k 48% 506k 52%
"Unanswered" with at least two answers - % of "Unanswered" 870k 12% 91k 7% 80k 8%

? - "Answerable" means questions that are not deleted, closed, locked or wikis. There are 24.2 MM total non-deleted questions.
§ - "Answered" and "Unanswered" refer to whether a question has an accepted answer or at least one answer with a score of >0.

It seems like questions are largely faring worse when it comes to getting any answer over the last two years, while getting a "validated" answer is even less likely and relies more on the asker accepting an answer. The likelihood of getting multiple answers is lower as well.

It's important to remember that these numbers only reflect questions that are currently answerable - not all questions that were asked. This table excludes everything the community has already acted on to close and/or delete or that askers have deleted on their own.

Even the "Roomba" column - what I think of as the "best case scenario" - shows the current trajectory isn't looking great, with nearly half of recent "Answerable" questions considered "Unanswered" by the system and 22% having no answers at all.

Answer data

So, now we know how likely a question is to be "Answered" - let's see what the answers look like. Here's their status on Stack Overflow up to the end of 2024 ("All-time") and for 2022-2024. Note, this table includes answers to questions that aren't "Answerable".

Answer category All-time % 22-24 %
All Answers 35.9m N/A 3.3m N/A
Answer score <1 14.6m 41% 1.8m 53%
Answer score <0 811k 2% 106k 3%
Answer score >2 7.7m 21% 334k 10%
Answer score >9 1.7m 5% 36k 1%
Accepted Answers 12.4m 34% 986k 30%
Accepted Answer score <1 - % of accepted 2.8m 23% 306k 31%
Accepted Answer score <0 - % of accepted 70k 0.6% 9k 0.9%

Over half of answers created in the last two years have a score of 0 or less - mostly a score of 0. Far fewer answers have a score of two or greater than did in the past. While some of this is likely due to accumulation of votes over time, it certainly calls into question some of the core tenets of the platform.

I don't know how to explain this succinctly - the platform, company, community, and users each have ideas of what this platform is, what it is "supposed" to be, and what it "could" be - but these ideas each seem flawed.

Top voters data

While by no means representative of all voting, here's the voting habits (all time) of the top voters on SO so far in 2025 (as of Feb 12). Note - these numbers do not reflect the makeup of votes cast this year, since that info isn't available. This represents all users who have cast at least 1000 votes in 2025.

The top 20 voters in 2025 fall into a few categories:

  • Exclusively upvote - 3 upvote >98% of the time
    • 1 votes <25% on questions, 2 vote 50-75% on questions
  • Primarily upvote - 2 upvote 75-80% of the time
    • 2 vote >75% on questions
  • Primarily downvote - 9 upvote 2-25% of the time
    • 1 votes 25-50% on questions, 5 vote 50-75% on questions, 3 vote >75% on questions
  • Exclusively downvote - 6 upvote <2% of the time
    • 1 votes 50-75% on questions, 5 vote >75% on questions

Overall (all time):

  • 1.4 million votes
  • 75% question votes
  • 87% downvotes
  • 21k average reputation, 6.5k median
  • 9 years average account age, 10 years median
  • The two newest voters (2 months and 1 year) upvote >98% of the time and are the only users with <2k votes.
  • The 6 lowest-rep users (<2k) are equally split between primary upvoters and primary downvoters, as are the two highest rep (>100k).

While my interpretation can be debatable and the data is incomplete due to deleted posts, the points I take from this are:

  • Despite there being more answers posted per year, the top voters vote on questions more than answers.
  • At this volume, primary upvoters tend to be lower reputation but primary downvoters are represented at all reputation levels.

Bigger than wrong answers

So... since I pulled all of this info and it seems to be a "best case scenario"... I've been really trying to figure out how to frame this as an answer to the question. I agree with a lot of the answers already here. I've long championed many of them personally and have collected data and user sentiment about them informally over the years that frequently just ended up living rent-free in my head - what was the use of writing down proposals knowing nothing would ever come of them?

Seeing these numbers is scary and leaves me questioning whether the core design of the platform actually supports the original intention and searching for ideas that would lead to a dramatic shift towards making the platform successful. But I do know that deleting verifiably wrong answers instead of (not) downvoting them isn't going to solve anything.

Is Stack Overflow delivering on its core purpose?

What are we even supposed to be doing anyway?

This platform was established to solve the problem of programmers struggling to find trustworthy solutions to issues they face in a miasma of forums, blogs, and other resources, sometimes behind paywalls. It intended to do that by having a durable library of high-quality questions and answers that anyone could access or contribute to freely. It would be curated and maintained by a community of experts and the content "validated" by voting - which would rank answers to help the best "bubble up" to the top. This is covered in the Tour.

The cake is a lie

And by "cake", I mean the Tour.

Ask questions, get answers, no distractions

Increasingly, people don't get a single answer, let alone multiple answers. While historically less than 15% of questions don't have answers, 25% of questions asked between 2022-2024 don't have an answer. And, while nearly 35% of questions all-time have at least two answers, less than 20% of questions asked between 2022 and 2024 do.

Good answers are voted up and rise to the top.

In actuality, 40% of all answers and 50% of answers in the last two years have a score of 0. Only about 20% of answers all-time have a score of >2 - the same is true of only 10% of answers posted in the last years.

You earn reputation when people vote on your posts

Technically true but with so few posts earning any upvotes, it's unlikely a user will actually earn any reputation to unlock privileges without hitting the jackpot.

Cutting away

At some point, things stopped working as intended - and some may have never worked well. In some cases, things changed - the people, the world, the platform. In other cases, they stayed the same when they needed to change. I appreciate questions like this one because they encourage us to look at the big picture and question the status-quo and identify what is working, what needs to change, and what we think will have the most impact.

We need to stop acting like the platform is OK.

If you can look at the data above and think a few small changes here and there will take the site back to its 2010 glory... please help me understand that. Did you even know - really know - that things were that bad?

Company people - I understand that it's "bad for business" to talk about your tentpole product going down the toilet but you need to stop acting like the site just needs different content types to appeal more to younger users or some minor "pain points" need to be addressed so that people are more willing to ask/answer questions. The recent community product roadmap blog post states:

the Question Assistant helps new askers improve their question and boost the likelihood of getting an answer by 12%.

This isn't even accurate, based on the data shared on MSO. While the "Success rate" increased by 12% - from 40% to 44%, getting an answer only increased by 6% - from 43% to 46%. By relying on a percentage change instead of stating what percentage get answered, you obscure the fact that the answered rate is so terrible in the first place.

This is the thing - the system is failing, which makes it difficult for users to actually find value in the platform and leaves the site looking like a ghost town - further depressing people's interest in participating. It also makes it a bit difficult for y'all to validate any changes being made are actually doing any good - if no one is voting, you kinda can't tell if the post quality got any better.

Start talking about the major platform problems in public - honestly, without marketing lingo to spin it. When you can't acknowledge things are broken and be specific, the community is unlikely to believe that you actually see what's broken. Step back and talk about the whole forest, not just one tree at a time. Present potential solutions you think might address those problems as concepts, not half-built features. Recognize the expertise of users by inviting critique and alternative ideas from the community.

Community people - y'all have been trying to draw attention to many of these issues for years. The answers here show that many things are up for consideration when it comes to restructuring the platform but the responses to the One rep to vote post really woke me up to how difficult it is as a staff member to even have these discussions.

Y'all have really valid and key concerns that even someone like me doesn't always see - that's why the community discussion is so valuable and why it's frustrating to feel unheard. But some of y'all tend to present those concerns as insurmountable or inevitable or couple valid risks with untested assertions of the scale of abuse or damage.

I understand that when things feel inevitable and people feel like they have no control, it's common to overstate or exaggerate arguments for impact in an effort to get someone to hit the brakes. It does work - but only so much. Eventually, people will just start ignoring what's said and dismiss it as hyperbolic. The thing is, with so many individual voices, even if the specific people speaking up against something may vary, it can seem like the community is always using this tactic, causing it to lose impact very quickly.

You don't have to trust the company to work with them. When you respond to staff posts, aim to create the same quality of meta answer that's expected on main sites - complete answers with explanations and supporting documentation. If something shouldn't be done, explain why and give an alternative way to address the issue. Try to understand the goals of the question and feel free to propose a frame challenge. These answers actually give staff things to think about they may not have realized or considered. Thanks to those already doing this!

Stop investing in projects that don't address the core problems

While making it easier for people to write good questions or encouraging people to write answers might make the numbers investors look at go up, they actually add to the problems of the platform. There's too much content to curate and too few people to do it and no tools to support community efforts.

Adding new content types (with minimal or no moderation) will exacerbate that problem and prevent the community from actually addressing it because now they have a new section of the site with minimal moderation tooling that also has to be curated. Banking on people who want to chat in discussions deciding to stick around and answer questions or review is unrealistic.

Fix what's already broken before creating more stuff.

Consider - if people aren't coming here any more, is it really because they want different content types, or is it because they can't actually find the content they need to address their problems? Do you honestly think you'll be able to compete with YouTube, Reddit, Discord, and other existing platforms people are already using?


I don't have all of the solutions - no one person does. That's why this community is such an amazing resource. There needs to be a vision and that needs to be a collaborative effort. If everyone's working towards the same goal, things can come together quickly.

But that requires everyone. I apparently failed to actually state my point (thanks Shadow). Over the last few years, I've seen a widening gulf between the company and the community and a lot of polarization of the amazing people on either side. I know (many of) those people and believe they are kind and capable and honest. I also know they're often stressed and anxious and human - they make mistakes, forget simple things, or rush in without enough information. No one I know actually wants this platform to fail.

As I stated in a comment:

We need to stop seeing the company and the community as effigies of everything that's "bad" about their respective entity as a whole. We need to start thinking beyond their actions and looking to understand the true reasons for them rather than making uncharitable assumptions. That requires being vulnerable and open about things - which isn't easy in the situation we're in. But I don't think that the platform can succeed without us working together to find a way forward unclouded by secrecy and ulterior motives (or the assumptions of them).

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    "the top voters vote on questions more than answers". This isn't itself a problem—it's easy to vote on questions. Voting properly on answers requires expertise and often time to verify. It most certainly is a huge problem that people don't vote (or interact in any other way) on answers—this is a big reason why I stopped answering on SO. But I do think it'll be necessary to make changes to the system in order to remedy this. (My ideas regarding this may be too ambitious to summarize in a comment.)
    – Laurel
    Commented Feb 24 at 18:38
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    While the answer is totally awesome, and I agree with most of it, can you please give TL;DR; of what you actually want the company to cut away, in a realistic way? From what I saw it's more about changing the company culture/behavior but not sure that's what has been asked here. I might be wrong of course. :)
    – user152859
    Commented Feb 24 at 19:00
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    If you can't count on the community to vote down wrong answers on a site, it has failed and that problem needs addressed more than the symptom. english.meta.stackexchange.com/a/12091/80039 discusses a bad case of a wrong answer being highly upvoted and the solution is still to leave it in place. The network should not abandon what makes it unique to cater to people who just read whatever answer pops up in a web search. We want people to come to the site and engage. If they do that, they get detailed information from many perspectives which they don't get from AI chat bots.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Feb 24 at 19:12
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    @Laurel Yes - in an earlier draft - I had a note about the inequality between people being able to judge whether a question is answerable and being able to determine whether an answer is correct. The corollary is that the fewer people who do vote, the more important it is that the votes are "correct". I rarely vote for two reasons - mostly I forget... but often it's because something sounds plausible but I can't verify that it's correct. I also struggle to upvote stuff if there's some part of the answer I find problematic or confusing... I'm kinda picky. :)
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 24 at 19:14
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    @ColleenV So, the platform does have post notices that are intended to address situations like that (at least to some degree). It's sort of like the community notes thing that some social media sites use - an indication that the answer has flaws and may not be trustworthy. But it's almost never used since only mods can add the post notices. It also could benefit from allowing custom explanations for the notice and/or a link to discussion about the answer. There's the "Needs citation" notice for exactly the case in your example. meta.stackexchange.com/questions/165006
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 24 at 19:21
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    @ShadowWizzard I wouldn't say this is only directed at the company. I can understand why it comes across that way. I've been working on it for a while and I may have rushed the ending a bit... I feel like we're talking past each other a lot - or talking at each other. We need to stop that - everyone does. In the past, when the site broke, community members used to joke about who was to blame for breaking something - now I see people jumping to nefarious conclusions about very run-of-the-mill problems. Things can be crappy without weighing every misstep down with imagined "evils".
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 24 at 19:40
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    Great writeup! "We need to stop acting like the platform is OK." is a particularly good point; I feel like too much of the communication from the company's side has been optimistic/failing to acknowledge some of the issues with the platform, and you're right that that does make the community feel more like the company and community are not on the same page.
    – V2Blast
    Commented Feb 24 at 19:45
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    We need to stop seeing the company and the community as effigies of everything that's "bad" about their respective entity as a whole. We need to start thinking beyond the actions and understanding the true reasons for them rather than making uncharitable assumptions. That requires being vulnerable and open about things - which isn't easy in the situation we're in. But I don't think that the platform can succeed without us working together to find a way forward unclouded by secrecy and ulterior motives (or the assumptions of them).
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 24 at 19:51
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    @Catija That's the problem with the company neglecting the relationship with the community. The "let's be happy like we used to be" ship has sailed. The only solution is to rebuild the community and cut loose the people who will never trust the company again, or to change the business model. I think it's obvious which path has been chosen. The only problem is the new business model is unsustainable without a community of volunteers curating data and reinforcement training the AI.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Feb 24 at 19:51
  • 1
    @ColleenV Maybe I'm too much of an optimist but I think there's room for AI and the existing community. Communities change over time - that's normal and natural. Trying to retain every member is futile - but there are too many competing options out there for the platform to be successful practically starting from scratch. Sure, there are people who will never adapt to the new things. People like to say "If it ain't broke, why fix it?" - You have to be able to say things are broken and show the numbers of how broken it is to get them on board with changes, though.
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 24 at 20:14
  • this query seems to indicate that since around the release of chatgpt, the rate of votes being cast per new posts being created is increasing.
    – starball
    Commented Feb 25 at 2:26
  • @Catija I guess I didn’t express my point well, because it’s not about AI. I don’t think anyone in the company is evil, but I’m done pretending like the company deserves the benefit of the doubt. AI is just the thing that caused the company to sell-out the vision that initially attracted me to it. The company needs to stop restricting access to the data dump, then we can talk about rebuilding the relationship. The company has damaged the community it had beyond repair and it’s going to be harder than they think to attract new people when the vision is to curate data for a paywalled AI.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Feb 25 at 3:00
  • @Catija as the wierd class of non programming deeply techie person - I should be more enthusiastic about it. The problem is broadly, the sort of AI we get now is basically designed to appeal to VC and is mostly marketing drivel, rather than the sort of technological improvements that improve quality of life. Its an oracle that babbles nonsense its true believers lift up to be the greatest thing ever, rather than what it is... a collection of words. I don't believe things are fine, and it will take a lot of work, and a very different way of dealing with the community to fix things Commented Feb 25 at 5:14
  • I've gone from 'we can do this' to 'maybe its too late, but maybe there's a hope. I don't see the company making concessessions on their vision on things, nor have I in a very long time. Commented Feb 25 at 5:16
  • 1
    I queried whether they would upvote more if they weren't saving their votes for downvoting - so having a separate vote limit for up and down votes. While I know that it's a tiny minority of people who are impacted, I would really love to see if that would make even a small difference, particularly considering how few votes are being given out at all. Maybe everyone should have four pools of votes - questions/answers, up/down. 40 each. Maybe it would do nothing... but maybe it would do a lot.
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 25 at 15:04
22

Using Stack Overflow as alpha test server.

Instead buy the devs their own private test server where they can play around with experimental features. Instead of constantly disrupting the biggest site in the network with "features", that nobody wants and nobody asked for, let alone applied to be alpha tester for. Without a way to even opt out.

I'm sure there are users who would like to help out with beta testing once there's something mature enough to roll out for beta testing. Let those users do that on this new test server.

2
  • 2
    Perfect example as of March 7th: the new editor on SO. The only thing good I have to say about it is that one can opt out of it. Whoever is responsible for these early alpha testing rollouts on the live SO server needs to be stopped.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 7 at 12:18
  • I am in full agrement. 100%
    – chqrlie
    Commented Mar 10 at 21:37
20

The new editor

It is buggy, it is unfinished. Nobody works on it*. It does not support stuff like snippets. It regularly makes odd choices for how to format stuff.

I understand that a WYSIWYG editor is good UX. But if it works. Right now, it imposed on users in a not-really-working state. I also have no confidence Stack Exchange is the company that will make a good WYSIWYG editor. Maybe see if you can outsource the work. Or use something off the shelf.

I mean, there are few here and there that are OK. When they do not do too much. But the vast majority are abhorrent. I am convinced that when I die and go to hell, my eternal punishment would be forced to use WYSIWYG editors forever.

* OK, I don't actually keep track. But I know it was not touched for maybe a couple of years. And there was some commit or two recently. But overall, I do not see any ongoing work on the editor to make it actually worth using.

The custom undo of the regular editor

Related, but the regular editor has a custom undo functionality that is bonkers. It almost never undoes what I expect. I might want to undo a word, and it removes a paragraph. Worse yet, often gets "stuck" and you cannot even redo what was undone. You press Ctrl+Z and two sentences disappear. Then you press Ctrl+Y and a sentence and a half appears.

Just drop the entire thing. All browsers support regular undo/redo and have for many years. The awkward implementation used on the sites has been obsolete for quite a while.

7
  • Note: I agree but there are some UI pages that have only ever had the new editor because, even though it wasn't shipped generally, all new pages were expected to be built with it (at least for a while). In some cases, it's possible that classic editor may not fit the UI well.
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 13 at 20:07
  • 2
    I think the flipside of this would be - SE never finishes a lot of what they start. and that's a bit of a waste. Commented Feb 15 at 9:39
  • @JourneymanGeek it's already unfinished. For years. I'm saying just let it go - clearly there are not the resources or motivation or the skill to finish the editor. Whatever it is, we shouldn't let sunk cost fallacy take over.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 15 at 9:50
  • 1
    Or actually having the willingness to see such projects through in the first place Commented Feb 15 at 9:51
  • 1
    Very fair to say that we only need one editor. I wonder how hard it would be to pull out the custom undo in the current editor... might take a look and see. I'm no web dev but at minimum it's not an area of the logic I know personally, and I'm curious.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 19 at 22:07
  • @Slate I have no problem with there being multiple editors. I specifically dislike the new editor. And I currently see no future for it being developed by the company. Because I see what has been done and that is what I'm basing my assessment on. There are many bugs, there are missing features, there is UX which is not very good. There has also been almost nothing done to it for a year or two. I've not really tracked but for a long time. Yet at the same time it has been pushed out and some users were forced into it. I've no faith the company does the editor well because it hasn't.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 20 at 5:50
  • 1
    @VLAZ, well, fair enough
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 20 at 14:41
20

The Stack Overflow Blog posts in the sidebar

I am not going to suggest that the whole blog is removed. I will not be against it but still, I just want to focus on the sidebar here.

The blog is largely useless for most people. I certainly remember reading some good articles there but as of the last few years it seems it is mostly various marketing posts. Occasionally it says an articles is sponsored but even for ones that are not often it is a clickbait-y headline and when you visit it says the article is written by the owner of some company that is in the sphere of the title or something.

I feel these just take up space. People interested in the blog can still visit it. People interested in the podcast likely do not need a reminder on the top right that there is a new episode.

Would that lead to less visits? Probably. But I would argue it is probably more beneficial for folks to visit meta posts. We can have a couple more visible instead.

1
  • 2
    As a note, I believe these blog posts currently only appear at the top of the sidebar for technology-related sites (and their Meta sites).
    – V2Blast
    Commented Feb 14 at 22:18
19

The Peer Pressure badge could probably go.

The purpose of badges is to encourage helpful behaviors. But what helpful behaviors does Peer Pressure encourage?

In order to get this badge in the first place I would have had to have made an answer that is not useful, or a question that does not show any research effort; is unclear or not useful. This is not particularly helpful, and deleting the post afterward might be better than waiting for the community to do the same for you, but generally fixing your post via editing is better than deleting.

And some users consider this the 'badge of shame' because this signals that they made a post at some point that was negatively received and they later deleted. They might not want to have that fact publicly available.

12
  • Imagine if the Peer Pressure badge could be earned multiple times... can it?! Commented Feb 14 at 2:16
  • 1
    @security_paranoid Not that I know of.
    – CPlus
    Commented Feb 14 at 2:16
  • 1
    If it could I would totally write a SEDE query to find out who had earned it the most times! But in all seriousness, I agree with this answer. Commented Feb 14 at 2:19
  • 3
    Yeah, I feel like this badge is meant as a "consolation prize" for someone who posted a poorly-received Q/A and wanted to delete it – but it's not really a behavior that we want to encourage.
    – V2Blast
    Commented Feb 14 at 4:08
  • 2
    @V2Blast And also some people do not even see the badge as a "prize" at all.
    – CPlus
    Commented Feb 14 at 4:10
  • Certainly Disiplined should go as well
    – Starship
    Commented Feb 17 at 16:31
  • @Starship Yeah I thought about putting that in the answer but I guess Disciplined might encourage deleting a wrong answer that somehow got upvotes? So I felt kind of on the fence about that one.
    – CPlus
    Commented Feb 17 at 16:32
  • @CPlus But then doesn't Peer Pressure do better? A wrong is more likely to get 3 downvotes, and it encourages deleting wrong answers, no?
    – Starship
    Commented Feb 17 at 16:35
  • @Starship Wrong answers that are downvoted are less harmful, because people can see that they are downvoted. Also answers of negative score can be delete-voted by Trusted Users. So in some ways upvoted wrong answers are actually worse.
    – CPlus
    Commented Feb 17 at 16:56
  • @CPlus Yes. But self-deletion of a heavily downvoted answer is far more likely to be a good thing than self-deletion of a heavily upvoted answer.
    – Starship
    Commented Feb 17 at 17:15
  • 4
    I don't disagree, but it's worth respecting the intent of the badge. The original purpose of this and badges like it was to provide some compensatory reward for when things go wrong. Badges like the now-defunct Tumbleweed badge offset the ill will that negative or non-reception cause. I think that this concept is sound, but the execution through badges probably needs work.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 19 at 22:39
  • 4
    We obviously don't want to reward users for lower-quality contributions, but helping users acknowledge when their post got no interest, interactions, or otherwise got little traction or outright negative reception is still necessary. That said, the badge-of-shame approach isn't really a solution to this problem. On top of that, it likely feels much worse for new users, who are the most in need of this sort of help.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 19 at 22:42
18

Q&A on metas

I feel the Q&A format is just inherently bad for meta sites. I also want to say that Q&A does not need to be completely gone, but metas can at least be diversified with the type of content. Or maybe we throw out Q&A and adopt another model.

In general, Q&A seems antithetical to metas on principle:

  • when metas are used for discussion, a Q&A is very one-sided. There is a proposed topic in the Q, then the As support or oppose it. But there is no discussion. There are comments but it is not enough. If you want to post something substantial related to an answer, you are stuck: multiple comments are probably not sufficient; posting another answer not directly related to a question is a big gamble and often will not work and the answer will be removed; posting an entire new question does not feel discussion-y. It feels like targetting a user. And even then it runs into the same issue as square one - how do you respond to an answer.
  • when metas are used for bug reports - a Q&A is an overkill. "Answers" are posted rarely and even when they are, they might try to offer more information, or offer an workaround (presumably temporary), or explain why it is not a bug, or just mention there was a fix. These are all crowbarred into the Q&A format.
  • when metas are used for feature requests you get mostly the same situation as bugs. But there are maybe a few more "answers" that might opine on the feature or offer some additional suggestions. Which does not answer anything. Because there was no question to begin with, anyway. The Q&A format is again just barely there as a structure.
  • Q&A only really works when asking for support. Because this does match knowledge base style format - "How do I do X on the site" or "Help me with Y" does then elicit an actual response. Having whole articles around how the sites work and how to use them is a good use of Q&A.

Meta sites are just bad at being what they should be right now. Yes, there is huge long history of the metas using the same engine as the main sites but I just think that has been a mistake.

6
  • 6
    Kind of crazy that "Q/A" is still the only main type of widget on the site, 15+ years later. Discussions, polls, announcements, release notes, issue tracking, docs, whatever. Any software development use cases like that could benefit from a clean, curated, canonical, SEO-focused product just like SO originally provided for Q/A.
    – pkamb
    Commented Feb 14 at 21:18
  • 1
    And in the few cases where a meta Q&A is the right solution, you could do that on the main site. Could use tags for meta topics if you like, but they could be right on the main site. I don't think it would be better, no, but it's not necessary to have Q&As in two places (and new users are perennially confused about it, and users dipping their toes into moderation are perennially eager to jump on a clear cut case to tell people they'reholding it wrong, etc etc)
    – Dan Getz
    Commented Feb 15 at 2:49
  • 6
    I agree that it doesn't work that good although I kind of got used to it, just wanted to say that one rationale was probably less development and maintenance effort. It's not only a cut, it's also an addition and the replacement would probably be even more complex with different content types? Commented Feb 15 at 8:22
  • There are so many posts on meta that are served well by the Q&A format, that removing it would be throwing away the child with the bath water. Adding other formats, OK, but doing away with Q&A? -1
    – Jan Doggen
    Commented Feb 20 at 10:35
  • @JanDoggen I think you're reading implementation details where I've only proposed an idea. Ideas are just that, implementation details come later.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 20 at 10:41
  • There's actually a really great discussion related to this subject on the SO Internal Team. Nic started it and there's interesting ideas about alternative post types for meta.
    – Catija
    Commented Feb 25 at 1:01
17

The idea that community resources need to be tightly coupled to the company’s commercial success. We have heard so many times that cutbacks are necessary cause the company has not met its financial goals, and that it’s necessary for survival. Sales are measured in quarters. Communities in years and decades.

It would be good to value continuity over shorter term finances - if a SaaS product is failing, it’s not a direct result of community resources such as community managers and devs failing.

In a sense it feels like the public platform, staff working on it and users are penalised for things out of our hands - and the decline of the network can directly by attributed to that.

And as a resource that was meant for developers by developers, SE would do well to avoid the anti pattern of arbitrary mass redundancies that seem in vogue right now.

4
  • The money for the resources has to come from somewhere. So if the overall revenue fluctuates or even just the expectation of future income, it makes sense to adapt the size of the workforce to it. Could you maybe clarify what you propose to do instead? Should the company report less profit, shift expenses from one department to another, pay into a trust fund to keep the community part going in the future? It's not clear to me how to sustain the resources in the long term you ask for. I always understood it as the company can switch off the platform any day, support it more or less as it wants. Commented Feb 15 at 9:11
  • 1
    I mean, the company shifted 10% of their resources to gen AI, and cut back on everything else by the same amount. I'm not saying an open checkbook, I'm saying that if some other business unit isn't doing well, the immediate outcome shouldn't be cutting public platform resources to accomodate that business unit's failure. Commented Feb 15 at 9:17
  • I see. Instead of cutting back on CMs they should have cut on employees of that other business unit or shouldn't have ventured into AI. On the other hand if the other business units would fare better or if the investment in AI had paid off they also shouldn't have hired more CMs. In short, they should have separated this platform more from the rest of their businesses. Commented Feb 15 at 12:09
  • 3
    Broadly over time - the reasoning for many rounds of downsizing was the other parts of the company doing badly, and every single one has had a negative effect on the community. Insulating pub plat resources that need continuity from seemingly arbitrary downsizing would be a nice thing. Commented Feb 16 at 18:08
14

This can seem very provocative but I guess this is the place for it: Management of the company thinking about the community as part of the product probably causes a big part of the friction between the community and the company and why some people don't like the sites any more.

In the past, it seems like there were features pushed by the upper management of your company that didn't fit the community. This includes you integrating LLM features but I think it isn't exclusive to that.

The current (upper) management of SE Inc. does not seem to care about the public platform and the community any more than it is a product giving them attention to promote your products (e.g. Stack Overflow for Teams) or talk about it in presentations.

When I think about your company's management and its actions, I have to think about the AI features (including whatever Overflow AI and Overflow API is), the data dump changes, the layoffs impacting CMs that actually have connections with the community and generally not much understanding of the community.

Speaking of the layoffs, how many community managers that have a deep understanding and some connection to the community are left, except you? Are there CMs coming from the community?

I am sure that you (CMs in general but specifically Slate) want the best for the community but you might only have limited power to make changes needed we (the community) need. If your upper management requests something, you are the ones conveying the bad message but is there a reasonable option to tell them why it's a bad idea? If this is an option, have there been cases where CMs have internally stood up for the community to tell management why something shouldn't be done? You (and at least some if not most of the devs) know the community better than management so are the only ones with the capability of telling management about the impact of their choices. Do you feel like you are actually representing the community in the company?

I can understand that SE Inc. is a profit-oriented company but it is heavily dependent on the community. Is your (CMs) voice heard in the company if necessary?

If a decision impacting the platform is made, the Community Managers should at least be part of that decision-making process.

I don't expect you to be able to answer these questions but I want you to think about it.

1
  • 3
    "If your upper management requests something, you are the ones conveying the bad message but is there a reasonable option to tell them why it's a bad idea? If this is an option, have there been cases where CMs have internally stood up for the community to tell management why something shouldn't be done?" There definitely have been cases like this. Obviously, as an individual CM, I didn't have visibility into the process of those messages being communicated up the chain (and how the executives responded), but I know that the CMs did convey those perspectives to our management (Rosie/Philippe).
    – V2Blast
    Commented Feb 14 at 4:04
13

Many of the exceptions and special behaviours of various systems that can be unexpected and surprising. For example

  • automatic downvotes for spam flags
  • rep penalty for spam flags
  • hiding posts on homepage (but not /questions) below a specific score
  • auto-removal of greetings or signatures in posts
  • blocks or automatic rewriting of certain patterns in question titles
  • automatic conversion of "trivial" answers to comments
  • ...

There are more of these that I can't think of right now. There's really a lot of tiny quirks all over the Q&A platform.

Most of them have some reasons why they were implemented. Those reasons might not even be bad ones. But in aggregate I don't think those reasons justify the added complexity and confusion these systems cause.

There are so many different quirks of the platform that it's almost impossible to understand and know them all. That is not a good thing.

4
  • 5
    It's possible that it would be fine for some of these things to still happen automatically if it's just communicated differently... As-is, I agree, they lie in an uncanny valley between what is "public" and what is "behind the scenes" that makes for an unsettling experience. Commented Feb 12 at 20:49
  • 4
    These are definitely some of our most significant UX snaggles. Also consider: available flag count increasing with helpful flags cast and rep. That's actually a case where I think we had the right idea - the system tries to figure out how trusted you are and give you more power on a progressive scale. But man is it not clear how and why it works that way.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 12 at 23:45
  • 4
    Another to add to the list that still bugs me (at least on meta): limit on daily comment upvote count, despite having no countdown or warning visible anywhere.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 13 at 17:03
  • @BryanKrause: Agreed. Some of these definitely have a reason, and there's generally not a need to get rid of them – but the UX definitely needs to do a better job of explaining what's happened and why. I think this has happened a little with the answer-converted-to-comment work by the Community Products team (back when I was a CM), but a lot of other stuff just happens with no explanation to the user experiencing it.
    – V2Blast
    Commented Feb 14 at 3:54
13

Per-site privileges / Association Bonus++

Cut away per-site privileges or largely grant the top privileges to users who are already trusted on other sites in the network (based on rep, good flags, accepted edits, whatever).

There are large clusters of sites where the topics and norms are 99% shared. Stack Overflow, Super User, Ask Different, Web Apps, Server Fault, etc.

This has been lightly discussed before by staff:

You make a good point, and having more of an intrinsic connection between the different sites on the network (especially the tech sites like the ones that you list which are so closely related) is definitely one of the areas that we have earmarked for further exploration and discovery in the coming months. – Yaakov Ellis - Staff - Mod - June 2020

Based on your particular question, the search engine might drop you into any of those big tech sites. We grant new accounts the Association Bonus because it would be annoying and onerous not to be able to comment or vote. But a proven, experienced user on Super User will also have absolutely no problem interacting on Web Apps. We should trust them to make edits and submit flags.

However, it's a huge, multi-year project for a new account to get up to 500, 2k, 10k rep on a new site. Years later, it's now even harder to do so as the easy/viral questions have largely already been asked.

We're requiring someone who is a star curator or moderator on Site X to go through this multi-year process in order to make good edits on Site Y or access the moderator tools. We have a proven pool of GREAT curators that we don't invite to work on all of the sites.

In 2009, people were saying things like:

Each site deals with its own specific niche. If you're trusted on one site there's no reason you should be given benefit of the doubt about your knowledge on other topics. If you're skilled in different areas you should be able to gain rep on all 3 sites. If you're not, users shouldn't be given the impression that you are.

and that attitude has largely gone unquestioned in the decades since. I don't think it's true at all, and it's certainly never been tested or backed up with data.

I know absolutely nothing about COBOL but Stack Overflow allows me to make no-review edits and flags on questions with that tag. The site hasn't been damaged.

Allow trusted users on Super User to make edits on Server Fault. See what happens.

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  • 11
    One really small thing that I think has really big impact for me personally is seeing vote breakdowns. It boggles my mind that this requires getting 1000 rep on a new site. The justification has been that it's an expensive query to make, so giving all people this can be detrimental. But not even allowing people with association bonus to see the vote breakdowns? 1000 rep is already a lot to ask for this. It should be much lower. Seeing the breakdown is quite vital. A +10 / 0 and a +24 / -14 are not the same.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 13 at 19:53
  • 3
    Not sure about all privileges. In particular, anything related to casting delete votes is hard to audit for abuse, even for a moderator, since content just sorta vanishes, no bump, with only a brief mention in that one obscure tool.
    – Laurel
    Commented Feb 13 at 20:49
  • 1
    @VLAZ It's a much bigger deal than that, even, on some posts. I invite you to Exhibit A, where without the view vote counts priviledge would look the same as any old 0 score post, but is in reality +148/-148 (as of this writing).
    – Starship
    Commented Feb 17 at 17:19
  • 1
    Nominally I agree with this, except the problem you run into is that different sites have different cultures. Some sites will threaten you with suspension for flagging comments like "thanks this is great" as no longer needed, for example. Letting people with privileges earned on one site run wild on other sites with very different standards is a dangerous game. I'd be for selectively making certain privileges network wide once you reach a certain threshold. Things like flags and edit privileges make a lot of sense, but reviewing or deleting posts much less so, for example.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 19 at 19:41
  • @TylerH We've been talking about these "different site cultures" for years but I don't think it's ever been examined/tested. My hypothesis is that granting all the high-rep SO curators network-wide top privileges would have no drawbacks and only improve the traffic and quality of the smaller sites. If small sites have insular, ridiculous(?) norms like threatening suspensions for flags... perhaps those cultures can and should change once more curators are active on the site.
    – pkamb
    Commented Feb 19 at 21:48
  • I'm simply letting you know that I have personally experienced some headbutting and culture shock when applying Stack Overflow standards of curation to other sites, multiple times. "perhaps those cultures can and should change once more curators are active on the site" Sites are generally free to choose their own cultures, which is the problem you'll run into. It's technically fine if a site wants to keep +1 thanks comments around, because hey, it's that site's choice to keep that mess. More curators won't do much unless they can sway the site's moderators to change their ways, anyway.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 19 at 21:50
13

The FAQs don't work

In the comments

[emphasis in bold mine]

If a huge social reorg is on the table, we should also ditch 89.2% of all the help and meta FAQs laying out the thousand little guidelines someone has to know to do things correctly. The learning curve is far too steep for new users and pointing them at all that text and being annoyed they didn't read and understand it all before dipping their toe in is inhumane. Almost everyone learns SE by interacting with people […] @ColleenV
Commented Feb 13 at 21:54

The answers are verbose, they're boring, they include painstaking detail. All of the answers to the FAQs have been extensively revised and rewritten so many times that they have lost the spontaneity–and in some cases–the friendly tone they originally possessed.

For example, this FAQ answer dated September 1, 2010:

What does it mean to lock a post?

A question or answer which is locked can no longer be edited, voted or commented upon, closed or re-opened. If a question is locked, new answers cannot be added to that question. Any of the (unlocked) answers can still be edited and voted upon. Locked posts can later be unlocked by moderators.

Who can lock a post?

Only diamond moderators can lock or unlock posts.

When should a post be locked?

Posts should generally only be locked in cases where the ongoing updates and edits are actively detrimental to the system.
For example:

  • A question where repeated voting or editing is happening in a way which games or hacks the system.

  • A question that gets opened and closed repeatedly many times without achieving community consensus on whether it should stay open or closed.

  • A question that, for whatever reason, continues to attract flame posts.

That is what the answer looked like on its fifth edit. It had a total of 155 words.

Today, the answer to What is a "locked" post? has around 1,000 words and has been edited a total of 44 times


Here's another example, the answer to the question: How do comment @replies work?

Today the answer has approximately 1,398 words and has been edited 97 times. It contains 16 bullet points, and a detailed list

Some examples of supported notifications:

  • @name some text
  • @name: some text
  • @name. Some text
  • @name, some text
  • some text, @name
  • some text, @name, more text
  • Some text, @name.
  • This is mentioned in @name's comment.
  • @P. for both P. Smith and P. Jones (whoever commented most recently), but not P.Smith nor P.Jones. Likewise, @P. Smith is handled as @P., so also matches P. Smith or P. Jones.
  • @psm or @psmith for P Smith
  • @peters or @peterj for Peter Smith or Peter Jones respectively
  • @name...

Examples that will not trigger notifications:

  • abc@name
  • *@name*
  • *@name:*
  • [@name](http://some-url)
  • @[name](http://some-url)
  • @P Smith

On January 10, 2011 at 13:31, the 21st revision had 487 words and eleven rules.
The last rule was:

  1. The notification must begin with a space or be at the start of the comment. For example, you cannot use markup such as italics. (See comments.)

The 22nd edit, dated Jan 10, 2011 at 14:49 introduced this list:

  • works:
    - @name some text
    - @name: some text
    - @name, some text
    - some text, @name
    - some text, @name, more text
    • fails:
      - abc@name
      - *@name*
      - *@name:*

The first time I wanted to notify a user, I looked at how users were addressed and figured out the @ was needed, then I noticed usernames in comments had no spaces. That was all I needed to know.

However, I have explained endless times to new users that they need to use the @ symbol plus the person's username if they want to talk to a user in the comments, and then I'd give an example e.g. @ColleenV. I have never, ever, added a link to that specific FAQ.

Can you imagine the first impact, the sheer bewilderment?

Another example, the answer to: How does deleting work? What can cause a post to be deleted, and what does that actually mean? What are the criteria for deletion? That specific answer has been edited 174 times and is approximately 4,350 words long. But on October 6, 2018 the 97th version was about 2,200 words long. What happened between 2018 and 2024 that the FAQ answer needed an extra 2,000 words?

The Faqs don't work. They are there for the geeks and nerds, of whom there are many, but surely intimidating for newcomers and ordinary folk.

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    The FAQs have evolved from quick answers for common questions into a reference manual, which is useful but not the best way to get new users up to speed. The Help Center needs to be redone from scratch by an actual technical writer to reflect the current state of the network. The FAQs with all of their glorious detail need to be migrated to a reference wiki for people to use and contribute to once they graduate to wanting that level of detail. I’d make it its own site where there’s some sort of restriction on adding new posts, but no editing restrictions. Maybe only migrations from Meta?
    – ColleenV
    Commented Feb 23 at 22:43
  • 1
    @MisterMiyagi The FAQs aren't bad, they just got repurposed into a comprehensive extremely detailed guide for everything about Stack Exchange. All we have to do to make them a shining example of what the community is capable of is to stop calling them FAQs and brutalizing newbies with them.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Feb 24 at 19:21
  • 4
    No, we're just bad at making sure everyone understands the end purpose of the post they're editing. We'd be great at FAQs if we weren't busy writing the most comprehensive reference manual known to humankind.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Feb 24 at 19:26
  • @ColleenV It's strange how you say "no" then immediately list two points that mean yes. That people do not understand the end purpose of the FAQs they're editing means we are bad at providing FAQs. That people do not write FAQs but the most comprehensive reference manual known to humankind instead means we are bad at providing FAQs. Commented Feb 24 at 19:30
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    @MisterMiyagi I was making a joke. The community decided at some point that FAQs weren't as important as a reference manual. If we had some guidelines around contributing to the FAQs and keeping them succinct, we may have decided to write the manual anyhow and neglect the FAQs. That's the thing about volunteers - they do what they want.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Feb 24 at 19:36
11

The -2 reputation penalty for receiving downvotes (the -1 for casting downvotes would have to be adjusted as well).

Reputation is a fundamentally flawed concept. It doesn't mean anything except serve as a rough indicator of how much someone participated on the site. It especially doesn't say anything about how much you know or how useful your posts are.

But even though these are meaningless internet points, people get really upset when someone takes away some of those points. The -2 reputation penalty does exactly that, it takes away a few meaningless internet points. But it doesn't really take away enough of them to seriously affect reputation, just enough to annoy and offend people.

The part that matters is vote scores. I mean they are also very flawed and heavily distorted by attention. But they are often useful to put the better answers at the top and the worse ones at the bottom, most of the time. The rep penalty doesn't affect this part, is just doesn't play any important role in the entire mechanism.

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    However, not having any reputation loss when downvoting will likely have the ill-effect of increased malicious downvoting, which is the reason reputation loss when downvoting was enabled in the first place. Similarly, if you refer to reputation loss when you get downvoted, you lose an incentive for fixing a post. Commented Feb 12 at 21:19
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    -2 reputation penalty? You mean -1 penalty? Or are you talking about the -2 that one would get if their post is downvoted? If the latter, then why not take away the +10 when it is upvoted too?
    – M--
    Commented Feb 12 at 21:21
  • 2
    This doesn't make any sense unless you argue for taking away the +10 for an upvote as well, or turning the -2 into a -10. People who get annoyed by losing a few magic internet points may as well be annoyed by something that actually matters, and if you're just appeasing rep hunters anyway, you're saying rep doesn't actually matter more than to push egos, and should be abolished anyway.
    – Nij
    Commented Feb 13 at 6:40
  • @Nij I think that misses the point; I feel it's possible to not be ruled by others' opinions (rep hunters or otherwise) but still consider the net effect/ impact and take it into account. People hate losing rep. points, and since that discomfort seems to me to be an intentional design to some degree, I think there's value in analyzing the overall net impact of "making people feel bad" in this specific way, and determining whether its truly worthwhile. I'm definitely of the mind that we can't (and shouldn't try to) serve everyone, but we should be extra sure stuff has a net positive effect.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 13 at 17:24
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    I like this answer, and how it challenges some deeper inner-workings that we just sorta all accept about how the site works. I refute the gut reaction "we'd have to get rid of upvotes as well"; I think there's value in analyzing them separately because they impact people separately, even though we track them together... At the end of the day, if the net impact truly is "it doesn't … take away enough … to … affect reputation, just enough to annoy and offend people", then it really isn't having the effect we want it to; I think losing rep should be a net-positive tradeoff for the site overall.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 13 at 17:34
  • 2
    Maybe controversial but I think @zcoop98 has a really good point. Aside from our sense of order, that if there's a plus-something there should be a minus-something and vice versa, we can ask what the actual function of this -2 penalty is supposed to be, and whether it works. If it doesn't, why keep it? A sense of balance alone doesn't seem like good enough reason to leave it be
    – Slate StaffMod
    Commented Feb 13 at 23:39
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    True. And getting rid of it doesn't mean something better can't be implemented in its place, that more precisely has the impact we want it to have.
    – V2Blast
    Commented Feb 14 at 3:55
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    @Slate There is no balance, TBH. As the answer points out -2 is mostly an annoyance. It's more significant for users with less reputation but even then, if a post gets +1 / -3 that's a net positive of 4 rep. A user getting few upvotes can get to a new privilege level (at low rep). A user getting a few downvotes can very rarely drop a privilege level, unless they are right at the edge. I completely agree that the rep penalty for downvoting should go. It is neither "balanced", nor achieves much.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 14 at 5:51
11

Complexity for the sake of simplicity.

I've been on SE a very long time. The rules and culture did get built up over time and I've lived through it - but sometimes I feel that the 'low friction, and let people work it out' approach had its advantages.

I get the desire to make it easier to get started, but sometimes I wonder if people might do with less training wheels and clutter

In some cases - like the help pages, its too much for someone just getting started, We used to manage with one page. In others - letting people opt out of say the question wizard might be good.

Basically, pondering what would be a minimal viable product today would be an interesting experiment

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    This is an interesting suggestion. I do agree that some info is just too much to throw at a new user all at once – some sort of "learning path" or a series of separate tutorials might be better, in a way.
    – V2Blast
    Commented Feb 14 at 4:10
  • I am so glad that I created my account before I would have had to deal with the question wizard.
    – CPlus
    Commented Feb 14 at 4:12
  • I had other users - maybe we have grown too big, too worried about the long eternal September but I mostly learnt by doing and messing up Commented Feb 14 at 4:54
  • "pondering what would be a minimal viable product today would be an interesting experiment" coughcodidactcoughcough
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 14 at 8:47
  • "pondering what would be a minimal viable product today would be an interesting experiment" I like that notion. If only someone had done it here. Because in principle everything except for the minimal viable product can be cut away. On the other hand MVPs would probably greatly differ between different people (especially of those outside of this world here). Commented Feb 15 at 8:28
11

I do not know how controversial this answer will be, but you asked, so here goes.

I find that the daily rep cap is not really useful. Your reputation should be an indicator of how much you participated in the site - what does it matter if you went on a massive answering spree in one day versus spread them out over many days? The amount of people you helped would be the same, so your reputation increase sould be the same.

Arguably some people just get lucky and post a question that just goes viral or something, or was around long enough to post an 'easy' answer to an 'easy' question in the early stages of the site. You could have posted one absolute banger of a question in 2009 and have moderator tools now even if you have zero experience curating. In this case, a 'per post' rep cap would be more helpful than a 'per day' rep cap.

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I'm thinking about what made me want to start participating on Stack Overflow, and then later, the rest of the network. Part of it was wanting to give back to a site that gave me so much (I can squarely attribute my success in my job as a software developer at least in part to Stack Overflow), but another part of it was much more interesting, and one that would be singularly impossible to remove, but one that I think is worth considering:

Reputation. Let's consider putting that on the chopping block.

Ah, reputation. The payment system for a job well done, a question well-sourced, an accurate answer, or a suggested edit well-written. Everything contributory you do to the site pays you back if others think it helpful. This is the heart and soul of what made, and continues to make, Stack Exchange users want to help out. We've tied our content rating system, voting, to it. Privileges are tied to them, so how much you can "play" with the site is determined by how much (and how well) you've contributed. We use it as a trust metric, an incentive, and for some it's what they're known for.

And yet, as we've talked about many times, it's broken in a hundred different ways, wears far too many hats, and for some, it doesn't go far enough. I wrote my own answer to that question that dove into reputation as a system and, looking back, I don't think I looked at just how difficult changing this system would be. Seriously, I don't think we've touched this system since we increased rep from upvotes on questions to +10 again, and that had plenty of criticism on its own. And for good reason!

If you change this system in any way that feels good for new users (equating "more rep" = "feels good" here) e.g. letting anyone upvote, you instantly break the trust factor that reputation stands for. If you start divorcing privileges from reputation like I advocated for in my answer previously, you tread upon the old and sacred ground that reputation has held since the site's inception. The ability to do the "big" things like vote to close and see deleted content are gated behind very high levels of reputation for a reason: They're powerful and if used improperly can cause problems.

This system is brittle yet strong at the same time. It's tied this network together for this long, and yet it's got all of these identifiable problems that we just can't surmount.

In some ways I can see why reputation hasn't really been touched in a long time, because it's so darn hard to get right. The more I think about it, the more this system hamstrings progress, but wow, would it be impossible to remove.

Gamification introduces problems

I'll be brief here, because I don't want to steal anyone else's spotlight. Reputation encourages inauthentic engagement. From the FGITW problem, to voting fraud (what a massive topic that is, by the way), to answering obvious-duplicates, plagiarism, answering a sock's question with an answer of your own, copy-pasting a GPT answer, posting here on Meta with an answer that you know will be popular but may not necessarily be the right thing to say...

The system that pays you will entice you to try and get paid with minimal work. I mean, how much work have moderators and staff had to deal with because of inauthentic voting and posting? Don't answer that. Just... Chew on it for a second. It's probably far bigger than I realize, and I'm (un)lucky enough to get an idea of how it looks from the moderator side of things.

Further, reputation just feels bad for someone who doesn't yet "get" the network. If your posts get downvoted, you feel like you're going backwards before you've even began (no matter that you can't go below 1 reputation). You feel like everyone else is a "moderator" because they have these tools that you don't and their "points" are so high.

But what's the cost of ripping it out?

Everything. Quite literally. The network was built upon the bedrock of reputation and the voting system. It was built upon the concept of "Moderated by you" and how "you" can be determined as being trustworthy is how much you're willing to contribute and how useful others find your contributions. If it disappeared tomorrow, so too would so many users who like the gamification aspect.

I can't possibly fathom a reliable replacement that serves as even a handful of the responsibilities that reputation has. A good start would be relieving reputation of at least some of those responsibilities, and see where that lands. Privileges were my first thought, but this kind of work is impossibly large when you're dealing with something as core as the reputation system, and it's impossible to get right the first (or second, or third, or fourth) try.

But maybe, just maybe, an imperfect solution is better than letting an imperfect system hamstring us from progress.

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    Interestingly, MathOverflow eliminated reputation and badges, at least visibly: Checking someone's rep requires going to their profile directly.
    – Laurel
    Commented Feb 12 at 23:40
  • 1
  • 1
    @Laurel You can enable rep display from the Trophy icon in the top bar ("[show/hide] rep")
    – cocomac
    Commented Feb 13 at 4:32
  • 1
    I wonder how many different metrics we could split rep into, according to its various hats; e.g. "trust", "contribution", "moderation"... having different meters (which could each be tied to different site actions and privileges) could theoretically make it better at measuring specific attributes of a user, at the cost of increasing complexity (probably drastically).
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 13 at 17:58
  • "I can't possibly fathom a reliable replacement that serves as even a handful of the responsibilities that reputation has." Why not? All we want is to control the error rate of people for various tasks. We think it might be related to certain reputation thresholds. Probably it is only loosely correlated there. If we had a system where many of us would vote/decide on the same things, we might be able to estimate that error rate for everyone for every task. Commented Feb 13 at 22:30
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    I will also note, in addition to these points, that in general, users gaining or losing reputation may often see it as a reflection of social approval: upvotes mean people liked your question/answer, downvotes mean they disliked it. And even where votes don't impact reputation (i.e. on per-site metas), they can still have that perceived effect. (And even if MO doesn't display a user's reputation next to their post, it doesn't change the fact that the rep system still exists under the hood.) It's worth keeping that in mind when tweaking the rep system.
    – V2Blast
    Commented Feb 14 at 4:00
  • Make a formula that calculates a value from reputation and running hours (time on site doing more than looking) and total time (member since); that both rewards and avoids "one hit wonders" + measures "work" (heavy lifting) in addition to brains (a question vampire can have a high rep) + credit for historical knowledge so old mistakes aren't repeated and sorely missing features are pestered (asked nicely) for. --- Silver and Gold Badge Tags can be used to smooge reputation to a more usable value; how to measure the other needed attributes much more difficult.
    – Rob
    Commented Feb 20 at 4:10
7

The amount of flags needed to delete spam, is what we should cut away down.

is a big, and ever-rising issue among the network, as many well taken questions trying to deal with it indicate.

Currently, 4 spam flags are needed to delete a post. As proposed on SuperUser, I think that we should reduce the amount of spam flags needed to delete a post down to 3 — network-wide.

Who agrees?


If this answer is taken well, I will consider making an official .

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    Fun fact: it was originally six but was reduced to four due to the events of mid-2023. Commented Feb 13 at 1:02
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    Can't spam be detected automatically by now? What about using AI for this instead of the other uses? Or having the notion of an experience spam handler instead of a simple threshold. One person in principle is enough if it has enough experience and enough trust. Commented Feb 13 at 10:43
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    @NoDataDumpNoContribution I agree (with everything you have said), but this question is about "what we can cut away" — maybe you should start a new discussion about such ideas? Commented Feb 13 at 10:58
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    @NoDataDumpNoContribution We do have SpamRam and SmokeDetector for detecting spam automatically. Regarding one person being enough: Do you mean mods?
    – dan1st
    Commented Feb 13 at 11:04
  • 1
    @dan1st I mean that an experienced user (normal or mod) who has seen many spam posts can decide with a high accuracy what a spam post is. Commented Feb 13 at 11:28
  • Yes but some experienced and trusted users (mods) already have the power to single-handedly mark posts as spam.
    – dan1st
    Commented Feb 13 at 11:48
  • 1
    @SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Funner fact: Years before that, it was 3 on EL&U and the Workplace. It was fine, though it still didn't stop people from whining about spam not getting deleted (or maybe that was just me).
    – Laurel
    Commented Feb 13 at 18:30
  • @Laurel why did it change (back?) to 4? Commented Feb 13 at 22:26
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    @security_paranoid Charcoal was the reason it seems. To be clear, it was reverted to the then-default 6 in 2019 (at least on EL&U), and has followed the network default ever since.
    – Laurel
    Commented Feb 13 at 22:33
  • Honestly, this wouldn't really do anything. Autonuking would be much more useful.
    – Starship
    Commented Feb 14 at 19:54
  • @Starship obviously what I’m proposing isn’t the “golden solution”, but 1) it’s much better than what’s currently implemented, and 2) SE is far more likely to agree to reducing the flag count needed to delete a post than full autonuking. Tell you what, you propose autonuking as a feature-request, and see how it’s taken… I personally would be in support, but I’m not sure about the majority of the network. ;) Commented Feb 14 at 21:19
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    @security_paranoid I did. And the company has incentive to listen. The less incentive there is to post spam, there more likely those people are to instead pay for advertising than try to get it for free
    – Starship
    Commented Feb 14 at 21:26
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    @security_paranoid That's my plan. SU is in immediate need of help and is more likely to accept it. Once proven on SU, it can be expanded elsewhere
    – Starship
    Commented Feb 14 at 21:47
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    @SonictheAnonymousHedgehog "the events of mid-2023"?
    – Jan Doggen
    Commented Feb 20 at 10:39
  • 1
5

The use of "legitimate interests" must be halted.

Why?

  1. The usage of "legitimate interests" in the context of SE doing is in conflict with GDPR Recital 47, as the usage is not within reasonable expectation of a user of the SE network.

  2. SEs has failed to demonstrate, as required, how each claimed "legitimate interest" meets the company's legitimate interests.

  3. The design of the consent dialogue is a dark pattern as it is easier to allow the usage of "legitimate interest" than it is to object to them, as pointed out:

[...] to deactivate "legitimate interests" cookies one has to click five separate buttons among two sub-menus:

  • Perfomance Cookies
    • Develop and improve services
    • Measure content performance
    • Measure advertising performance
  • Targeting Cookies
    • Understand audiences through statistics or combinations of data from different sources
    • Use limited data to select advertising

The act hiding of the objection in obscure sub-menus is quite dubious, I offered a solution(2025-08-07), but nothing came of it.

  1. SE's argument for the usage of "legitimate interests" is based on the compliance with "Interactive Advertising Bureau’s (IAB) Transparency & Consent Framework (TCF) EU 2.2". While that sounds official and important, the IAB is just a US based trade association. The IAB is NOT an official institution and it's TCF is NOT legally binding. In fact, the legality of the TCFs implementation has been called into question.

As per the many links, you can see this is not the first time the topic has been brought up. Suprisingly there is no movement (on the company's side) to be seen, despite this being a legal issue, which usually rings all sort of alarm bells for companies.

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    "Suprisingly"? That has sadly been the standard for years. Issues are sit out until users forget about them. Since most are fine with the status quo as long as the site is still running, there is no real risk for a community wide strike. At worse, you will get a few users ranting, and it is easy to dismiss them as "antagonizing". Commented Feb 14 at 14:40
  • Btw, let me point that my previous comment isn't tied to any specific concerns the users expressed in the last years, nor to the actually validity of those concerns. I expect that the company would comment on any issue the users raise (at least within the limits of reason), even just to explain why the issue is a misconception, a misunderstanding or not-a-problem. Talking is great at solving issues... Commented Feb 14 at 14:44
  • To be clear the "legitimate interests" section is often for the "carefully selected partners" rather than the sites themselves. Not excusing it, and it's nice to note the SE only has a handful compared to some sites. Commented Feb 20 at 8:52
  • On any site that prevents me with the dark pattern of 10+ cookie options (including 'legitimate interest' which has nothing to do with me considering it legitimate) I religiously block all cookies. Not on SE sites (yet?) because I've been here from before this cookie madness.
    – Jan Doggen
    Commented Feb 20 at 10:43
1

I will just reiterate what I suggested on the previous question since it more or less covered the same ground.


Remove Reputation

Instead of reputation, show a user's "score", with a min of 0. If they have received a net of 60 upvotes, their "reputation" is 60, not 600 + bounties + accepted answers + approved suggested edits.

The goal of this change is to demystify reputation and eliminate the rep cap. It equalizes the value of upvotes vs downvotes so that you can't overall have a negative record of participation while still having an overwhelmingly positive reputation due to the 10rep vs -2rep imbalance.

This is probably the most controversial removal/change I'm suggesting here, and doesn't necessarily only have positives. For example, there's probably users out there who, today, have 1000ish rep that will have far less than a 100 score after this change, because their contributions on average haven't been positive or came from suggested edits being approved. It also renders the bounty system moot... which is a positive in my opinion, but I know a lot of people like the ability to make and earn bounties.

(It would also require a new privilege system... but I cover that next)

Alternatively to using score, just focus solely on how "helpful" the user's contributions have been by making the user's "reputation" be equal to the number of upvotes they've received, possibly even having a secondary stat of how many accepted answers they have. This would require some other visible stat users can easily find to explain why they are question banned when they are, though that should probably exist regardless.

Remove the current rep based privilege system and replace it.

Replace it with a sliding scale system based on how effective the user uses the given privilege. For example, at the start all of your edits should be suggested edits and users should be limited to a certain number of suggested edits per day. Let's make it 50 for arguments sake, though none of these numbers should be taken as well thought out final numbers. Then, for every 20 suggested edits you have approved, you gain 10 edits that you can make per day without it reaching the suggested edit queue. If you go past your per day limit, the rest of your edits go into suggested edits. Cap it at some reasonable number.

This style of throttling allows users who frequently use a given privilege to gain the ability to use it more effectively over time as they prove their ability to use it properly, while keeping users who use it sparingly in the "suggested edit" phase of the throttle regardless of how many good answers they've posted until they've actually proven they can use it effectively.

Remove/Replace the current UX for displaying a post's score and accepted state.

Currently the most prominent thing we display for a question or answer is its score, this puts far more emphasis on the score and leads people to be bothered by it being positive or negative far more than they should be. The reason its prominent is to show users just how "useful" a given post is compared to the rest, however, the sorting of posts already does this. I think we'd be better off if we instead gave more context to voting by displaying them in the form of "X Users found this helpful" and "Y users found issues with this answer" below the question or answer. For questions specifically, this can be modified do "X users also had this question" and "Y users think this question is unclear or poorly researched".

I think this would be a useful change because it wouldn't necessarily change the meaning or power of voting, but it would change the perception of voting. It would give users a clear indication of whether or not a post has problems, and whether or not a post has been found helpful, regardless of the magnitude of either.

4
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  • you do realize that your first proposed scenario can't expect to work as long as Tim will continue to lose his keys, right? You hope to make downvotes and upvotes equal on a network where it is acknowledged that some user go as far as downvoting stuff out of spite for specific tags... Commented Feb 13 at 12:46
  • @?PArcheon Does that actually happen? Commented Feb 13 at 20:56
  • @user3840170 it does, yes, though i'd hope the other changes i'm suggesting would help limit the perceived damage that and other similar cases could cause.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 13 at 20:58
0

You're asking for the hatchet. I give you the hatchet. :)

One way to approach it would be to envision the minimum viable product that fulfills most of the core mission and everything else that we have but wouldn't be contained in such a minimal version is bonus/convenience/clutter and could be cut away with inflicting maybe not too much pain.

How would such a product look like? Like if I would have only one million dollar budget but would need to start from the scratch, what would I do?

For me, the core mission was always building a knowledge library in Q&A style by human collaboration. However, others will emphasize the live help desk aspects instead and will arrive at different conclusions. And it's never only the knowledge generation, it's also always about retrieving it.

For all this we need: a place for people to ask their questions, an asking ground, where only answerable and not yet answered questions leave, and a place for people to answer questions, an answering ground, where people submit and vote on answers; a way to interconnect different Q&A (tags, related, ...) and a landing page with a powerful search function and some form of self-government (elected moderators, some space for discussions) and finally a way to measure trust in people. Think about it as more like going towards Wikipedia but still Q&A focused and still with competing answers.

Technically we need user accounts, content editors, comments, flagging, discussions, thresholds, voting (up and down). To even add something: more ways to structure the knowledge like different content types, sub-categories, ways to describe outdated knowledge, ...

Maybe one could adapt existing content management software systems like for example Mediawiki for this.

Everything else can go. In particular: reputation, badges, printing author names below content (maybe use the MIT or Public domain license instead of CC), votes on questions, accepting answers, jobs, collectives, AI, special designs for each site, specialized sites (just tie privileges to tag groups), upper management's blog posts, ... ;)

Research requirement for questions or downvotes could in principle go, but I have a bad feeling about this, I would actually keep them at any costs. And of course data dumps. They should never ever be cut away.

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    Something like Wikipedia? In theory anyone could submit an answer, edit an existing answer, updating the answer, supplying references, all the while being uncredited. Is that your idea? Apologies if I have misinterpreted. Commented Feb 13 at 10:18
  • @Mari-LouAСлаваУкра?н? Wikipedia is not focused on Q&A and has no voting on competing answers. Also there is no ready distinction between the question formulation phase and the answering phase. But one could probably use the MediaWiki software and maybe adapt it for the purpose. Not a bad idea. Thanks for your comment, it helped me clarifying the concept. Commented Feb 13 at 10:24
  • Weren't you arguing that the idea of reputation, and attribution, should be removed? "Everything else can go. In particular: reputation, badges, printing author names below content…" Personally, I like recognising the avatar or name of a person who has shared their knowledge and expertise. It's tough to build up that "reputation" and respect on a Q&A site. Of course some users have used AI in their answers (even thousands of post) to further augment that reputation. Commented Feb 13 at 10:28
  • @Mari-LouAСлаваУкра?н? But I also said we need to have a way to measure trust in people. Something like requiring consensus and then checking people's history and detecting outliers. I wrote now that I imagine not simply a Wikipedia where every page starts with a question but rather something in between Wikipedia and StackExchange. Votes on content, stages, flags on content. and lots of Wikipedia stuff like no names below content on questions or answers, no reputation, no badges. Commented Feb 13 at 10:33
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    If cutting away reputation, need to find alternative incentive to participate.
    – user152859
    Commented Feb 13 at 10:38
  • Some users have typically resorted to AI to "improve" their answers (on SO, one user confessed to manipulating AI content in thousands of their "human" answers) by further augmenting their considerable reputation. Wouldn't AI content in answers be a serious risk if we removed attribution altogether? Your idea Something like requiring consensus and then checking people's history and detecting outliers. sounds like too much effort and very time consuming, besides it's not that much different to the AI answer experiment proposed by SE. Commented Feb 13 at 10:41
  • @Mari-LouAСлаваУкра?н? I nowhere mentioned AI except in the "can go" paragraph. And this is also not the focus of this answer. I imagine humans at work relying on themselves. If AI plagiarism is a problem it needs to be sorted but I don't want to think about it here. But is CC really the only effective tool against AI? Is Wikipedia also overrun by AI content? Well maybe I simply decide to take the one million dollar I imagined I would have and run for it. Then we can wasily cut away everything because we are going to be overrun by AI spambots anyway soon. ;) Commented Feb 13 at 10:50
  • @ShadowWizard "If cutting away reputation, need to find alternative incentive to participate." There is intrinsic motivation in contributing to something meaningful and there could be stats of your past actions showing you how much you contributed. How is it with Wikipedia, how do people keep on contributing there without reputation? Commented Feb 13 at 10:52
  • @NoDataDumpNoContribution sure, there are those who are satisfied with the actions alone, and knowing they help and make the Inernet/World better in a way. However, there is considerable amount of people who this isn't enough for them, and they need something they can see and measure or compare with other people. I don't fully agree with them but I do know it's not only few, and think their contributions are valuable enough to justify something like reputation and badges.
    – user152859
    Commented Feb 13 at 13:22
  • @ShadowWizard I understand, you say that if gamification helps, why not use it. But then we also tie privileges to reputation and badges (mjolnir for example). If we wouldn't and if rep would just be a number that happens to be displayed for some and not for others (those who opt out) maybe then people would realize how little it really means. I'm more for telling people that this all isn't the real thing, the real thing is number of good questions asked, number of good answers given, number of helpful comments or edits, contributing towards a common goal that actually does some good. Commented Feb 13 at 21:34
  • @ShadowWizard If it helps people then yes, why not even personalized thank-yous. Or something else which isn't a single number like rep. And Wikipedia is really interesting: They have thousands of editors who work simply without rep. Your stats are what you have contributed. How important that is: maybe time will tell. Commented Feb 13 at 21:39
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    @NoDataDumpNoContribution I agree and in ideal world, that would be enough for Stack Exchange as well. And perhaps it will work, and the new users arriving due to such change would suffice to compensate for those leaving due to that change. But it's a bet, a big bet, and I prefer not to take it.
    – user152859
    Commented Feb 14 at 6:56
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    "The core mission is building a knowledge library in Q&A style by human collaboration" No this is some afterthought narrative that some users of SO started spinning. Building a knowledge library = wikipedia. This was never the mission of SO let alone the SE network. "Library of knowledge" doesn't even apply to a whole lot of sites in the network. The core mission of SO was explicitly to make a useful site for professional and enthusiast programmers. In practice, more than anything the site is a debugging assistance site where you can go and ask for help when you get stuck.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 14 at 8:57
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    @Lundin I don't want to argue. That seemed like the core mission for me. I come here more often to lookup something others have written than to ask a new question. However, I'm also glad I'm kind of consistent in proposing a Wikipedia like structure for a Wikipedia like mission. I will mark that more clearly. Commented Feb 14 at 9:28
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    @NoDataDumpNoContribution You'll have to step further back in time. Stack Overflow Launches
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 14 at 9:50

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